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 Post subject: tornado vs miracle
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:16 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:02 am
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hi guys i am looking at either a tornado 20 or a miracle 20. i do not know much about the tornado(s in general-like the actual builder or part availability) but heres a link

http://bellingham.craigslist.org/boa/3462853060.html

looks nice enough.

hear the miracle can be tough to sail over 20knot winds. doubt the sailplan is much smaller on the tornado though so similar problems probably.

the miracle is not spin rigged...

the tornado is not trap rigged...? i think...?

i like that the miracle will not have to worry about a tilting trailer (breaking-as those sorts of things seem to do secondhand)... but is the extra 1.5' beam worth it?

thanks for your help, i do realize this is a hobie forum and that these kinds of posts are subjective. i'm a bit new to sailing and am going to be moving to bay area this summer and want a fun rig that isnt a 30 year-old h16 and dont mind dropping $3-$4k

-anyone think that waiting for an 18 to pop up in the next couple months would be an even better idea?

:D :D :D thanks for the input


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 Post subject: Re: tornado vs miracle
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
Posts: 4498
Location: Detroit, MI
Biggest problem with the Tornado - it's 10 feet wide. You can't trailer it without disassembly or a tilt trailer.


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 Post subject: Re: tornado vs miracle
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:40 pm 
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The one I'm looking at does have a tilt trailer...

Would love a spin rig for the hobie how much would it set me back for one?

I saw a hobie 20 back up in San Diego, from his video looks like he already has a spin rig for it. Quite a road trip from the Olympic penninsula to so cal tho


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 Post subject: Re: tornado vs miracle
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:01 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:20 am
Posts: 37
Location: Czech Republic / SB / Lipno
its easy to make decision if you have crew - tornado 8) it will show you that is SPEED 8) 8)


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 Post subject: Re: tornado vs miracle
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:59 am 
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Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 8:28 am
Posts: 514
I really want to build a tornado using Cedar strip construction methods...


Must clear some projects out of the shop...


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 Post subject: Re: tornado vs miracle
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:32 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
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Location: Detroit, MI
ronholm wrote:
I really want to build a tornado using Cedar strip construction methods...


Must clear some projects out of the shop...
The Tornado was originally designed to built from tortured plywood. Some of the prettiest boats were built from cold-molded plywood by the Gougeon Brothers using WEST System.

The ones made by Marstrom using epoxy and Nomex honeycomb are the best, though. Stiff and long-lasting.


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 Post subject: Re: tornado vs miracle
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:32 am 
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Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 8:28 am
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MBounds wrote:
ronholm wrote:
I really want to build a tornado using Cedar strip construction methods...


Must clear some projects out of the shop...
The Tornado was originally designed to built from tortured plywood. Some of the prettiest boats were built from cold-molded plywood by the Gougeon Brothers using WEST System.

The ones made by Marstrom using epoxy and Nomex honeycomb are the best, though. Stiff and long-lasting.




Yep... But I want to build a cedar strip one..

It will be plenty stiff enough, and right in the ballpark for weight. It is possible to build it lighter/stiffer than tortured ply...


I am still in the planning stages on this one though.. and lots of projects ahead of it..It isn't stopping me from passively shopping for a boat though :wink: .. I would love to find one somewhat close to home to sail around for a while, and use for parts before starting the build.



The building process is where it is at for me though.. If it ends up a couple lbs heavy... So what? Heck... If I can get handle on the processes Wood spars and the rest of it would be the ultimate dream boat...





If I simply wanted to race... It would seem the 20 would be a better choice as there would be someone to race against.


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 Post subject: Re: tornado vs miracle
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2403
Location: Jersey Shore
Do you want to spend the majority of your time putting your boat together, or sailing?

They are both awesome boats when it comes to providing a fast, high-tech, and exciting ride. They are similar when it comes to max speed with a slight advantage going to the Tornado, but the edge would go to the better sailor. Regardless of whether you tilt or disassemble the Tornado, it will still take significantly longer to assemble than the H20.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: tornado vs miracle
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:57 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:34 pm
Posts: 4
The Hobie 20 is a great boat, it's design was supposed to replace the Tornado design smaller and easier to get to regatta's. The smaller design wasn't proven and fell out of existence. I have a Hobie 20 love it to death, but selling because Hobie killed the class, no parts available, with-in price reasoning. Get the Tornado you can do whatever you want to it, sail it, and be happy sailing a cat. I have a F18, only hopie part is the Hulls and Mast.


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 Post subject: Re: tornado vs miracle
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:58 am
Posts: 560
Location: Knoxville, TN
I'm going fo give you some advice that you probably don't want to hear. If you're "a bit new to sailing", then neither the Hobie 20 nor the Tornado is the right boat for you. They are both complex to rig and sail. From first hand experience I can tell you that a Hobie 20 will be overpowered beyond a novice's capability and I'm confident that the Tornado will be as well, especially in the heavy air that you can expect in SF Bay. I have both a Hobie 20 and a 16 and I strongly urge you to consider a Hobie 16 for your first cat. It will give you plenty of thrills. After you are confident in your ability to tame the 16, then consider moving up to a rocket.

_________________
Mark Van Doren
Division 9 Chairman
H16 #112205 (Richard Petty Signature Edition)
H14 #47787
H20 #647 (sold)


Last edited by MVD on Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: tornado vs miracle
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:51 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:58 am
Posts: 560
Location: Knoxville, TN
mcoastie wrote:
Hobie killed the class, no parts available, with-in price reasoning.

Hobie did in fact quit producing the Hobie 20 in 2007. HOWEVER - Hobie does still provide parts for Hobie 20s. Replacement hulls and masts are the only things you can't buy from a Hobie dealer, and even those become available from time to time on the used market. I bought a 1997 model four years ago and replaced virtually everything on the boat with parts purchased through Mariner Sails, the Dallas Hobie dealer. Their site is http://www.mariner-sails.com/. Surf their site and you'll find parts diagrams for every Hobie to include the 20. If you order by noon, they'll typically ship your parts anywhere that afternoon. As with all sailboats, parts aren't cheap, but I can't imagine that Tornado parts would be any less expensive and certainly not easier to find, especially since many of them are custom built.

But I stick by my previous post, if you are "a bit new to sailing", neither the H20 nor the Tornado is the right boat for you. I urge you to consider the simple-yet-plenty-fast-enough Hobie 16.

_________________
Mark Van Doren
Division 9 Chairman
H16 #112205 (Richard Petty Signature Edition)
H14 #47787
H20 #647 (sold)


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 Post subject: Re: tornado vs miracle
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:34 pm
Posts: 4
I agree with MVD, the 20 and tornado are beasts over 20 knots. Get a boat in your knowledge base and grow with it, as your experience gets more challenged get a boat that can challenge that experience.


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 Post subject: Re: tornado vs miracle
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:02 am
Posts: 6
MVD wrote:
I'm going fo give you some advice that you probably don't want to hear. If you're "a bit new to sailing", then neither the Hobie 20 nor the Tornado is the right boat for you. They are both complex to rig and sail. From first hand experience I can tell you that a Hobie 20 will be overpowered beyond a novice's capability and I'm confident that the Tornado will be as well, especially in the heavy air that you can expect in SF Bay. I have both a Hobie 20 and a 16 and I strongly urge you to consider a Hobie 16 for your first cat. It will give you plenty lf thrills. After you are confident in your ability to tame the 16, then consider moving up to a rocket.


awesome! thats just what i wanted to hear in fact! i can throw $2k at student loans and credit cards and find a decent 16 for $1000. i guess the next question is whether to get an 18 or 16. I hear the 18s tack a bit quicker and may be less pitchpole prone, but like the 16's not having to worry about dagger board issues...

thanks everyone for the input!


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 Post subject: Re: tornado vs miracle
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:04 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:58 am
Posts: 560
Location: Knoxville, TN
For a first boat I would favor a 16 due to it's simplicity. Yes, the 16 does pitchpole easier, but once you learn to sail it, avoiding a pitchpole isn't difficult. Even though the idea of burying a bow and flipping end over end may sound scary, it's not that bad. You get wet, right the boat, and continue sailing just as you would after a normal capsize.

The 16 doesn't tack as quickly as the 18, but once you get the hang of tacking the 16 it's pretty simple. Any cat with daggerboards will pivot around them and tack quicker than a cat with asymmetric hulls like the 16. But the tradeoff is that the 16 doesn't have boards to deal with. That simplifies rigging and sailing, especially beaching.

The 18 isn't as complex as the H20 or the Tornado and not as overpowered, but it's significantly more boat than the 16 and is faster. One advantage the 18 has is that it carries weight better. If you'll be sailing with a combined crew weight of above 400 lbs on a regular basis, you might want to consider the 18.

Whichever boat you get, make contact with your local fleet or a dealer and have an experienced Hobie sailor help you rig up and sail your new boat the first couple of times. There are little nuances that a novice won't pick up on. Once someone shows you how you'll see that it's pretty simple, but you may not figure out how much tension to put on the jib luff by yourself or how to catch the main halyard lug on the hook at the top of the mast. You'll need an 18 sailor to show you how much mast rotation you need going upwind and downwind and how to rig and operate the jib furler. I can't tell you how many newbies I've seen that don't know that the rudders are supposed to lock down, let alone understand how to do it or how to make a simple cam adjsutment if they won't lock. If you get a 16 you'll want to have someone show you how to tack it. Trying to figure all this out on your own can lead to lots of frustration rather than fun.

I just want to help you get off to a good start.

_________________
Mark Van Doren
Division 9 Chairman
H16 #112205 (Richard Petty Signature Edition)
H14 #47787
H20 #647 (sold)


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 Post subject: Re: tornado vs miracle
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:02 am
Posts: 6
MVD, thanks so much for the help!!! Found a 16 looks pretty decent, checking it out Saturday bringing some cash and my 1-7/8ths hitch!

I appreciate all the help! My girlfriend and I tip the scale at just over 300 and I'm close to 200 for future solo sailing. Very excited

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/3523045507.html


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