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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:05 am 
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I’ve been thinking about this subject and…
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I am not a real good performance test for the EPO blades either. I am big, slow, heavy, and haven't raced seriously for many years. I do plan to sail the national though, and really wanted to hash this out here rather than spend any amount of time hashing it out in "the room" when I could otherwise be partying with friends.

Mike, no disrespect, I fall in the same category as you “not a real good performance testâ€

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:26 am 
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I guess I don't get the problem here. If MM is not interested in building any more of the M20 rudders, and the EPO/EPO2 is virtually the same except the head, how big a decision is this then? Someone just needs to write it up and send it off. When the current batch of rudder heads break on all the 20s out there, we can replace them with the standard racing fare available at our local friendly Hobie dealer.
Plus John, when you're upright, you're plenty fast. Its the whole upside down thing that seems to slow you. :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:54 am 
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xanderwess wrote:
I guess I don't get the problem here. If MM is not interested in building any more of the M20 rudders, and the EPO/EPO2 is virtually the same except the head, how big a decision is this then?


I've thought about it. It could be a BIG decision.

I'm saying, before we fly off and start any decision making for our peers on behalf of a One Design class :shock: :shock: , for something we are ASS U ME ing is an insignificant change, maybe it would be prudent for MattM to get a set of EPO 2's to the likes of Mr. Pedrick, Doershner and Collins (heavy on the Mister) and have them performance test this "theory" first.

Think about it...they're breaking going upwind. If the size and shape is slightly larger and different than an EPO and, the originals under certain conditions fail, what will the EPO do at this condition? The EPO's may not break, but they may loose flow. Who knows?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:16 pm 
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Well, you may be right. I wonder what they could do to prove they work? I am sure there is come mathmatical formula used for size of rudder/daggers vs. sail area etc........


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:04 pm 
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The Hobie 20 rule 1.1 Rudder blades, rudder assemblies and dagger boards shall be stock as supplied by the HOBIE CAT CO. Only HOBIE CAT CO. supplied after market rudders are allowed to replace stock rudders.

The EPO blade is a HOBIE CAT CO. supplied after market rudder.

I think it is time to stop the discussion, the EPO2 is a HOBIE CAT CO. supplied after market rudder. It is by definition a class legal rudder. Unless this wording is changed, it is legal even if substantially better or worse. The request has been submitted to Erik Olsen, but I don't think that was required. The rule is quite clear. The EPO2 blade is legal by definition.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:10 am 
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Hammond,

Extending your argument, would a Hobie 33 rudder be class legal on a Hobie 20? It is also a Hobie manufactured after market rudder.


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 Post subject: Rule decision...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:05 am 
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Rule decision pending:

I am told that the Hobie Class rules committee has agreed to allow the standard Hobie rudder profile for use on the H20. At this point it needs to pass through the Class execs, but it appears that it will be allowed.

To address a few bits of misinformation...

The H20 was never supplied with the standard rudder. It had always had this "custom" shape. Why? To make it different I think... and someone thought this "euro" shape was cool. Someone else thought we would save weight by cutting away the head (bad idea... they crack). There was no testing done with the intention of deciding which blade should be used. The story about a need for better control on a reach came from the 21SE. The H21SE was originally tested with the standard blades and a larger one was chosen to ensure control of that boat with a (huge old style) chute on a reach.

The overall profile is nearly the same as the standard blade. The depth is the same, H20 blade is only slightly longer fore to aft (cord). The foil shape is better and more forgiving on the EPO. The standard rudder is very large in comparison to blades on many other cats (I20 for example). The standard blade is plenty big and has been tested since last summer on the 20 with very positive results, including spinnaker sailing.

It is not my intention to discontinue production of the original blade. At least not for some time to come. You will be able to use either blade, your choice.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:27 am 
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Since Hobie Cat Co. has not made the Hobie 33 at any time that the Hobie 20 has been made, then the Hobie 33 rudder is not Hobie Cat Co. supplied. If you could buy it from Hobie, then by definition, it would be. I guess then the question would come about the Island Adventure rudder. It is Hobie Cat Co supplied, but will not fit the Hobie Miracle rudder casting. I guess the Hobie Mono Cat rudder would fit, but I don't think it is available either. I guess that leaves the EPO2 or the white glass rudders as the only "after market" rudders supplied by Hobie Cat Co.


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 Post subject: Factory supplied
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:55 am 
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Legal factory supplied?

The rudder originally supplied with the boat would be the legal "factory supplied" version. Unless otherwise allowed by the rules (which is happening now).

You have to go back to what?... General rule 1:

Any alterations to the hull form, construction, equipment, spars, sails or running rigging, as supplied by the builder except as is specifically authorized by these rules, are a breach of these rules,

or

4. LOOPHOLES

IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE FOUND A LOOPHOLE, READ THE PRECEDING STATEMENTS AGAIN...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:18 pm 
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Dang,
I was really looking forward to modifying the Hobie 33 rudder. The boat would be slow, but boy could it ever point. :wink:

For those who don't know the history here, I put EPO2 blades on because I broke several stock rudders and the EPO2 was what was on the shelf at the time and I wanted to sail. Besides that, they look cool and were similar enough that I didn't expect to see any performance related issues.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:05 pm 
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Hello Matt,
Has a ruling been made on this? A new lime green main may depend on the outcome. :? Maybe teal, I have to get the design commitee ruling on this one.


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 Post subject: Ruling
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 9:37 am 
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The ruling was stopped by Phil Collins. He wanted time to evaluate for himself. I have two sets of rudders out with Phil and George Pedrick for testing. We have since learned that a Bay Area 20 sailor/racer has been using them for years... they work fine. Now it is up to Phil to report back to the rules committee and hopefully get this rolling again.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 12:47 pm 
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Phil and George?? Better choice than me and John E., that for sure....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 11:27 pm 
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If it turns out that the rudders are determined to be safe (I.E. no excessive cavitation, boats are controllable etc. What is the chance of getting this rule changed before the Nats?

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 Post subject: H20 Rudders
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:56 am 
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We were trying for that, but now it is up to Phil to get it moving again. I suggest writing to him directly if you are interested.

Hobie Class: 1st Vice Chair
Phil Collins
Email: CollinsHobie20 (at) aol (dot) com

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