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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:49 am 
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pbisesi wrote:
Maybe it's time the HCA-NA worked with the F18 class.
If the Nationals were held together there could be a F18 champion and a Tiger champion at the same event.


Unfortunately that option is expressly forbidden in the F18 rules. According to the F18 rules it's illegal to seperate out different makes for trophies. Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just wanting to let you know.

I was very dissappointed when the H16's were scheduled so close to the F18 Nationals. We really tried to get the date out early so that this wouldn't be a factor. I believe the H16's hands were tied to that weekend for some reason if I remember correctly.

I think it's becoming obvious that the US can't support 3 Nationals a year for different F18's. I personally believe if you are going to sail an F18 your Nationals of choice should be the NAF18's. This is coming from me, the biggest one-design proponent that there is. If we had a lot more boats actively raced in the US this might not be the case.

Carlyle is looking forward to putting on the best NAF18 regatta yet. We are very excited about it.

Get your registration in and don't miss it. http://northamericans.naf18.com/

Mike Hill
Tiger #1520

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Mike Hill
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:39 pm 
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Rules change.
That is the working together thing.
It appears that the sailors have spoken and would rather do a F18 Nationals and not 3 individual ones.
It seems to me that the class associations should get together and try to allow for a F18 champion and individual manufacturer awards provided there is at least say 5 boats of a particular brand.
HCA, Nacra and maybe Ollie and his Cap guys can get together and do what makes sense.
Could turn out to be The Big Thing to be at. ( right behind the 16's of course) :wink:

If not, the HCA could extend the olive branch first an allow F18's at their events.

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Pat Bisesi
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 Post subject: Communicate
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:51 am 
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It’s good to see that there is some constructive thinking about this situation. We will be talking about this subject at the AGM in September. Discussing Tiger Class issues at the 16 NAs is not the most desirable way to figure out what went wrong but it will be a start. I think it would be very helpful if Tiger sailors contacted their Division Chairs with constructive thoughts about this situation. I am also interested in getting more feedback from sailors on this topic so please contact me as well if you think you can add to the discussion. I’ll be watching the posts here as well, as I’m sure many others are. I think it’s crucial that the people who predominantly sail Tigers communicate with class officers on this. It appears to me that better communication may have prevented this in the first place.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:26 am 
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pbisesi wrote:
There are 34 F18's registered for the nationals.
There are no Tiger NAC's
The Nacra nationals has 5 - F18's.

Half the F18's at the Nationals are Tigers.
Having the F18 Nationals and the H16 in back to back weeks is not good for either event. We should work with them.

This should be looked at again. Maybe the Division chairs can take it to the fleets and get some feedback.

The 16's 17's and maybe F18/Tiger need to at least try to have a couple of weeks between events.

I would also like to hear from Matt Miller. Is Hobie Cat Co. opposed to such an idea? I do relize how much they do for us.

I don't feel like it will hurt HCA or Hobie Cat Co. but increase membership and once again improve the HCA reputation with the sailing community which looks at the Hobie only "edict" as it's called as us thumbing our nose at them.
I am not looking for open boats, just explore the F18 issue.


I strongly agree with Pat on this one. I have talked with numerous Tiger and (non-Tiger) sailors about this and everyone has supported the idea. You can still score and rank Tiger sailors in addition to the F18. This would certainly bring more boats to the events. In addition, I think it would be good pr for the class to open that fleet up.

Let's do it guys! How do we go about making that change?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:19 am 
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Location: Commerce Twp, Michigan
After giving it some thought, I'm going to come off the fence and support Pat's, Olli's and Bob's position of allowing any F18 to sail at Hobie points regattas. I will engage my division leadership (Jeff Rabidoux) and other Division 10 Tiger sailors for there opinions. Hopefully this feedback will be in place for the AGM at the 16 NAC.

Hobie Co. already supports the NAF18. Lets look at the numbers. The recent Cangas Tiger Worlds attracted 60 or so boats. Santa Barbara had approximately 90. The recent F18 worlds had to limit the number at 160. But my concerns are will the Tiger Worlds go away in favor of the F18 Worlds and what about the Hobie one design Tiger class here in the US? We've got great paticipation here in the midwest and northeast...averaging about a dozen Tigers per event. MadCatter was the exception with 20 boats. Changing the Tiger to F18 at regattas will only increase participation and competition.

Pat's right...maybe we should extend the olive branch to the F18 camp. Are there any other viewpoints out there?

John Bauldry
Commodore, Hobie Fleet 276
Detroit, MI
Hobie Tiger #1704


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:05 pm 
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Location: San Diego
I do not own a Hobie Tiger so some may discount my point of view.

The danger you run in moving to pure open class is in making your boats obsolete. If you diminish the Hobie Tiger class to just another F-18 then you run the risk of having Hobie say "we need to update the hull design to remain competitive in the F-18 class". Your $16,000 boat just became a hard to sell $4,000 boat because you all need to buy the new design to remain competitive and everyone else in the old Tiger class will be forced to do the same thing. What happens when F-18 allows for Carbon Mast/ Hulls. Do you wand the Tiger to go this way also? With Hobie one design, you as a class have some measure of control. Don't give this away. You have the best of both worlds now. A strong one design class, and a competitive F-18. Be very carefull of what you wish for.

Regatta planning is/should be easy to resolve. Don't confuse the two seperate issues.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:08 pm 
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One other thought,

Think I am exaggerating? How many Nacra/Inter F-18 designs have there been to date? How competitive are the older boats? What are the older designs selling for?

Don't do it...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:42 am 
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Hammond

You bring up some good points. The F18 is a class with rules that the members can vote on and not be influenced by the manufactures unlike the Tiger class where only the elected officers can vote. I had an 2002 Tiger and I think they have changed everything but the hulls and mast on the new boats so to be competitive you need to by a new Tiger or at least new sails which Hobie priced out of site. My point is that in sailing F18 the members control the class, you can by parts and boats from any one you like to keep cost down, there will be more boats on the water, the manufactures are competing against each other to build better,faster boats. Here in the south east we have a 50/50 mix of Hobie and Nacra and don't have any Hobie only regattas and it works for us. I wish here in the US Hobie and Nacra could get along and look at the big picture but they can't so it is up to us to make things happen.

I don't think the Inter 18 was ever supposed to be an F18 here in the US and that is why it does not sell for much. I just saw a Hobie Fox sell for around 5,000 and I think it cost around 14,000 new they never change the hulls on that boat. The old Tigers and Nacra F18 are selling for about the same price here in the southeast a few thousand off new which is to be excepted.

I can only go to so many week long events. I like to go to Alter Cup, Tybee 500, Naf18 Championship and those take 3 weeks of my vacation time. I would rather go to the Naf18 championship (with a better chance to have more boats) then to do a Nacra or Hobie Nationals.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:59 am 
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One other point sailors make the boat go fast. I have traded boats my old boat for a new design and get beat by the same amount with someone else on my old boat. You can put any top teams on any of the different F18's and they will still come out on top. That just shows how good the class is working.

Would it not help the Tiger class to have supplied boats like the Hobie 16 class gets. It would be a lot easier to just fly to the event and use a supplied boat. Has the Hobie class ever supplied Tigers for an event? That might be the problem. How many times have they supplied Hobie 16's ?.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:34 am 
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Maybe Bob can address how HCA voting is supposed to work.
It's not just officers that vote.
When rule issues come up the entire class is often given the opportunity to send in their opinion or fill out a survey.
It would be good to clear up how some things work. I hear things all the time about how the HCA works that are not accurate.

Hobie supplied 16's last year for the Nationals. That was the first time in about 20 years. They will not be doing it again this year because it was very expensive for them to do so.
They have supplied 16's and Tigers to a few Alter Cups.

It's good to see some dialogue and not stone throwing here.
There is a lot to consider.

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Pat Bisesi
Fleet 204 Syracuse, NY


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:58 am 
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Pat

It would be good to know how the HCA does change rules. I have just seen where the members can make comments on the rule but can't vote. I am probably wrong though which my wife tells me all the time.

David


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:29 am 
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The HCA is controlled by the Board of Directors. That hasn’t always been the de-facto case in the past but I think we are successfully getting back to that.

The voting members of the Board are the Div. Chairs and the Women’s Rep. The HCA Chair votes in a tie.

I think it’s way to early to talk about voting. To make a big change like this you would need a clear demonstration that the vast majority of the sailors want to change and that it would be good for the class. I’m not convinced that it’s a cut and dry issue but talking it through is a healthy thing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:06 am 
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Could we do some kind of poll/vote of the Tiger sailors to see how they feel about this? I have a feeling that a vast majority of them would agree to open it up to F18s. Maybe doing combined nationals could be a separate issue to discuss to simplify things.


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 Post subject: Updates on SF...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:51 pm 
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Hello Tiger Sailors. I am posting race info on the H17 board if you are interested.

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 Post subject: Egg on their face
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:00 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA
The Tiger sailors that wimped out on S.F. Bay because "it is too windy" have to be feeling egg on their face by now!! I mean, the 17s are racing in a 'raging' 10-15k! Oooohhhhhh!!!

Come on, guys. If you are worried about "big winds" then maybe you ought to cut back on the cheesecake and by a 16 or 17!!! :D

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