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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:37 am 
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If 2 boats are on a line to the finish line, and they are coming up on the committee boat (which is to port), can the boat on the starboard side force the boat on the port side into the committee boat, or to turn off and circle around, or does he have to let you finish. These are 2 boats side by side port boat was ahead, starboard boat was catching up they are less than 6" apart. Port boat was on the windward side downwind finish... I can't find specific rules on this. Thanks

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:11 am 
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don't worry about the rules just have fun

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:45 am 
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its not fun to argue while sailing about whos right... its also not fun to have a bad taste in your mouth after such an event in a points regatta... Who actually knows the rules and can tell me who is right?

Either the boat on the port (A) is allowed to finish and the boat on the starboard (B) has to let them, or boat A has to turn around if boat B forces him into the committee boat...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:47 am 
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I could be wrong but I think this falls into the same category as rounding a mark. If overlap is established room has to be given.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:32 am 
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ajsemtb wrote:
its not fun to argue while sailing about whos right... its also not fun to have a bad taste in your mouth after such an event in a points regatta... Who actually knows the rules and can tell me who is right?

Either the boat on the port (A) is allowed to finish and the boat on the starboard (B) has to let them, or boat A has to turn around if boat B forces him into the committee boat...



I have a question, how long have you been racing? I ask because a lot of guys on this forum tell me that knowing the rules is not important when you first start racing , and that after you race for a while if you are a quick learner you will figure out the rules.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:32 pm 
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AJ,

Without a little more detail, it is hard to give an absolute answer, and KNOW that it is correct.
Rule of thumb is you cannot prevent another boat from finishing.

And, Littlewing, for a guy that professes a distinct dislike for racing, I find it interesting that you feel the need to weigh in on rule questions. Your flip answers are not helpful, and they reflect poorly on you.

Stephen

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:23 pm 
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Okay, here's the details as best as I can remember...

I'm in boat A. I have already passed boat B. we are both on the downwind finish leg closing in on the committee boat/buoy finish line. The committee boat is to port, buoy is to starboard.

So, I'm to the port side, and we are both on similar lay lines to the finish, he's footing just a little more than me, so he starts gaining on me. I THINK we're on a starboard tack, cuz the sails were on the starboard side, downwind, so we would have to turn starboard to have the sails come about? We were sitting on the port side of the boat, so the opposite side of the tramp from the overtaking boat B. He comes up next to me, and we're closing in on the finish line, he says I can't cut him off, cuz he's overtaking me. He said he could force me into the committee boat and therefore make me basically do a 360 and come in behind him.

Now, I know this guy, and we're kinda buddies, so don't think I'm upset with the situation. I'm not a fleet member this year cuz of my inexperience, but he is, and he's actually given me a lot of pointers helping me to tack better, fly a hull, and so forth just a few weeks before this race... So we know each other.

So in the end, he bears off a little and lets me win, by maybe 6 inches, so it wasn't that big of a defeat. Furthermore, he was a B class, I was a C class, so we weren't even racing against each other... There was a chance that we might have been, which is where the competetiveness came from, cuz the C class might have joined the B class to make the numbers better, but we didn't...

After the race, he went and talked to someone about the rules, and said that he had the right of way, and that he could have forced me into the committe boat. Another skipper came up and after hearing all that told me that he had to let me finish, and the rules about overtaking in this case didn't apply because of the finish... WHo's right?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:49 pm 
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ajsemtb wrote:
He said he could force me into the committee boat and therefore make me basically do a 360 and come in behind him.

WRONG

ajsemtb wrote:

After the race, he went and talked to someone about the rules, and said that he had the right of way, and that he could have forced me into the committe boat.

The guy he talked to was WRONG too

ajsemtb wrote:
Another skipper came up and after hearing all that told me that he had to let me finish,

RIGHT
When approaching the finish line, anything outside of the finish line is treated as an obstruction.
One boat cannot prevent another boat from finishing.
I think the rule you want to read up on is Rule 18

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:20 pm 
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I guess I'll try to set the record strait AGAIN, I love Hobie racing, go it!!!!.
I personally do not care to participate as far as racing myself!
I have said in the past , :roll: to new racers, to know the rules, and for some reason a few folks disagree, this last thread by AJ sums it up perfectly. I will say it again if ya gonna race KNOW the rules, or guys like must are going to beat you every time !!!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:21 pm 
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Little Wing wrote:
I will say it again if ya gonna race KNOW the rules, or guys like must are going to beat you every time !!!
Complete, utter, HOGWASH!!!

You can beat a LOT of people, with only a very basic understanding of the rules. Just because someone knows the rules, all the rules, or more rules than you has no bearing on whether they can sail the shortest distance around the course quicker than you.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:23 am 
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ajsemtb,
Essentially for downwind finishes you have to look at the finish line like it is a "C gate". All the same rules apply for giving room for rounding, I know because I lost a protest a few weeks back. If you are within the 3 boat length circle of either the committee boat or the pin "mark", you must give anyone inside your overlap room to finish. Must429 is correct it is rule 18, but more specifically 18.2.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:12 am 
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Quote:
Essentially for downwind finishes you have to look at the finish line like it is a "C gate". All the same rules apply for giving room for rounding,


This is correct. The rules for a downwind finish are the same rules that apply when going around the leeward gate. So if there is an overlap, the outside boat has to give the inside boat room within the 3 boatlength circle.

Quote:
I THINK we're on a starboard tack, cuz the sails were on the starboard side, downwind, so we would have to turn starboard to have the sails come about? We were sitting on the port side of the boat, so the opposite side of the tramp from the overtaking boat B.


This doesn't make sense. If you were sitting on the port side of the boat and the sails were on the starboard side, then you were on PORT tack. So one question would be, were you and the other boat on the same tack or on opposite tacks? If opposite tacks, then port must keep clear of starboard outside of the 3 boatlength circle. If you were both on the same tack, then windward must keep clear of leeward outside of the 3 boatlength circle.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:22 pm 
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Hi AJSEMTB,

Let's see if I get this correct .... you are sailing/racing downwind on PORT (the wind is passing over your port side, sails out to starboard, correct) and your buddy establishes a "overlap" on your windward/portside, correct?

How the overlap is established and how close you are to the commitee boat are "key" to what your options are ..... you can not just drive your buddy into the committee boat but you do have methods to defend your position .....

As the leeward boat you are allowed to "luff" as high as you want as long as you give the windward boat "room and opportunity to keep clear" .... what does this mean? .... it means you could have headed your buddy up to the moon if you did it before your buddy was "clear ahead" or their only option was to physically to hit the committee boat. Now (as a FYI) if he had established the overlap to your leeward you would have had to sail your "proper course to the next mark" but he established it to windward.

Now timing is everything .... at a point above the finishline outside the three boat lengths circle to/around the committee boat you should have hailed in a loud voice ..... coming up, coming up, coming up and slowly luffed up .... I would have aimed for the commitee boat's anchor rode ... forcing your buddy up. Now he would have been pinned to the outside of the commitee boat and when you turned back down to the finishline he would have been forced to fall in behind you and follow you to the finishline. In fact if needed I most likely would force him high enough and outside of the committee boat so that I could have jybed onto starboard to finish leaving just enough room for me to clear the anchor rode and committee boat and then dive for the finishline, also this would establish that I have "starboard rights" if there were any other boats finishing on port. If you waited too long then you would have to leave him "inside room" to finish

Does this make sense????

Also .... who is MUST5429???? if you research the last +5years of H18NA results, please look for the name Mr Stephen Cooley ..... if I could only be half the gentleman and sailor he is ..... He is a Master who knows his H18 and sport

Good Luck Stephen my friend at Havasue .... may you earn the right to "Buy the Ice Cream!!!!" this time. Susan and George will be there!!! I hope to see you again in ol' Miss next year in June!!!! It looks like I maybe able to bring Megan if she keeps her grades up!!!! The NA's are scheduled for her next to last week in 9th grade so we may have to work something out about her "formal" schooling.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:12 pm 
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[quote="Harry Murphey"]Hi AJSEMTB,

Let's see if I get this correct .... you are sailing/racing downwind on PORT (the wind is passing over your port side, sails out to starboard, correct) and your buddy establishes a "overlap" on your windward/portside, correct?

How the overlap is established and how close you are to the commitee boat are "key" to what your options are ..... you can not just drive your buddy into the committee boat but you do have methods to defend your position .....

As the leeward boat you are allowed to "luff" as high as you want as long as you give the windward boat "room and opportunity to keep clear" .... what does this mean? .... it means you could have headed your buddy up to the moon if you did it before your buddy was "clear ahead" or their only option was to physically to hit the committee boat. Now (as a FYI) if he had established the overlap to your leeward you would have had to sail your "proper course to the next mark" but he established it to windward.

Now timing is everything .... at a point above the finishline outside the three boat lengths circle to/around the committee boat you should have hailed in a loud voice ..... coming up, coming up, coming up and slowly luffed up .... I would have aimed for the commitee boat's anchor rode ... forcing your buddy up. Now he would have been pinned to the outside of the commitee boat and when you turned back down to the finishline he would have been forced to fall in behind you and follow you to the finishline. In fact if needed I most likely would force him high enough and outside of the committee boat so that I could have jybed onto starboard to finish leaving just enough room for me to clear the anchor rode and committee boat and then dive for the finishline, also this would establish that I have "starboard rights" if there were any other boats finishing on port. If you waited too long then you would have to leave him "inside room" to finish

.[/quote]
What rule are you citing here? I was on port tack, (apparently) and he came up on the leeward side, so it sounds like he did everything you're telling me, but I've heard from others that He's not allowed to not let me finish... Thanks

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:52 am 
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Quote:
What rule are you citing here? I was on port tack, (apparently) and he came up on the leeward side, so it sounds like he did everything you're telling me, but I've heard from others that He's not allowed to not let me finish... Thanks


If you were both on the same tack and he came from clear astern and then established an overlap to leeward, then as the windward boat, you must keep clear (Rule 11). HOWEVER, since he established the overlap to leeward from clear astern, he is only allowed to sail as high as his proper course (Rule 17), which in this case would be the layline to the finish line (committee boat). He is not allowed to take you higher than that.

If you were both on the same tack and he was clear ahead and then you tried to pass him on his windward side, you must keep clear and he is allowed to take you as high as head-to-wind.

Once you both reach the three boatlength circle (around the committe boat or pin end of the finish line), Rule 18 kicks in. If you have an inside overlap, he must give you room.

There is no rule that specifically says "one boat must allow another boat to finish" but the rules put certain limitations on how boats can alter their course in the vicinity of other boats. What I gather from your description, he tried to pass you to leeward and then take you up above the committe boat and prevent you from finishing. He can't do that. He can take you up to the layline of the committee boat (his proper course) but then when you get to the 3 boat length circle, he would have to give you room to finish as long as you have an overlap.

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