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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:13 pm 
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Location: Clinton Lake Lawrence, KS
In reading the IHCA rules it states all boats must have a comptip mast to race. We just purchased an '82 18 Magnum (all aluminum mast) that has '89 hulls and wan't to race. What is the reasoning for this rule?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:06 am 
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Hobie was sued once too often by morons who raised their mast and/or sailed into power lines. Hence the later boats having the top 1/3 of the mast made from non-conductive fiberglass. In another CYA move they offered these retrofits free for several years, and then just to cover it further the class declared them to be required for racing.

That said, apparently people don't really care about that until you start doing well enough to threaten the points standings of people who care about that sort of thing. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:41 am 
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At a Hobie Cat sanctioned (Points regatta), you are allowed one race without a CompTip mast. After that you MUST retrofit your mast with a CompTip.

Don't mean to disagree with Jamie, but unlike sailing with a Non Hobie trampoline or sails, which people may overlook until you start winning. The all aluminum mast is a saftey issue and is more likely to be enforced.


You can however race with an all aluminum mast all you want at an open multi hull regatta.

My advise is either buy the retrofit kit, or find a cheap used mast somewhere. It's allways better to be in compliance with the class rules anyways, they take the chance of having a great day of racing ruined by being DSQ.

Brent P. Hendricks
H-16 S# 13566


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:32 pm 
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I'm sure Brent has more racing experience than me, so I'll defer to him regarding who pays attention to what. I still don't buy the safety issue though, if you're not an idiot. Sadly idiots do participate in all sports, so we're certain to get a few our way and they ruin it for everyone. :?

Jim


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:53 pm 
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For first time retrofits (like yours), Hobie Cat encourages their dealers to sell the Comptips at cost + shipping, so you can be class legal at a reasonable cost.

The retrofit is not a particularly hard thing to do yourself.

Word is on the street that the 18 is faster with the Comptip than without.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:26 pm 
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Jamie,

The problem is, that it's the idiots and their families that sue, sadly they don't even posess the kills necessary to realise their stupidity.

Hmm not sure about having more racing experiance, That's Highly unlikely..

Though I did race this weekend in Ventura, and I have a rather EMBARRASING experiance to share (Even though it really in all honesty wasn't my fault).. I entered the regatta in C fleet (Pre registered in fact), and again on signing up for the regatta at Sat I registered in C fleet. I was not told that no one had yet signed up in C fleet. I would also have thought the race comittee would have noticed that I was the only C fleeter present and just scored me with the B's.

Being new to racing and everything, we where just please that we got out there, started the races, where able to find the marks etc, and finnish (And did so before several other B fleeters.), However looking at the score sheet later that night, under H-16c, being the only boat, of course we got 1's straight across the board. Okay this was good for a chuckle over dinner...

The embarrasing part came when at the trophy presentation, we actually got a trophy (A bottle of 2 buck chuck) for coming in first in C-Fleet.. I joked to everyone that this must be what kissing your sister felt like. Sure you get to tell everyone you got the prize, but it means absoulutely nothing. That got everyone laughing.

Until the next regatta.

Brent


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:48 pm 
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Thanks for the clarification guys. We'll figure out which dealer wants to be our local since closet is in Omaha.

Brent, Congratulations on winning your first regatta and welcome to B Fleet!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:54 pm 
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DON'T CUT YOUR MAST TO INSTALL A COMP-TIP.

Just think about this for a minute. I have raced Hobie sanctioned events and trust me when I say that cutting your all aluminum mast to install a $350 fiberglass tip so that you can win a drinking glass with some simple etching on it for you and your crew is not worth it.

If you are good enough to compete with the best of them then you will want a brand new boat to race with. Guess what, it will come with a comptip. That is unless you are going to buy a tiger. I guess people that buy tigers are considered to be not as dumb as the rest of us.

If this issue with the comptip mast was that big of a safety issue, then Hobie should be forced to install a comptip free of charge to anyone that has a Hobie boat with an all aluminum mast regardless of time. I was a mechanic for a large dealership and I have had people come in to have saftey recalls performed on their vehicles. Some of these vehicles were over 30 years old. They could have been 100 years old, it just doesn't matter. When it comes to a saftey issue and automobiles, they must be repaired. If the owner refuses to have it repaired then that is their choice. But if the owner sells the vehicle, and the new owner knows that the safety recall has not been done, then they can take the vehicle down to have it done free of charge. I am guessing that this is not the case with electrical conductive masts. Must not have been a safety or tigers would be coming out with comptips.

The thing that is really ironic is that the guys and girls that want to race are told at sanctioned events that they must have a comptip (except tigers). Most of these guys and girls have used boats and are are just starting off or they are there just for the fun of the event. They have saved up or scrapped up enough money to go, only to be told they need a comptip to participate. However, the guys and girls that have the $15,000 tigers without the comptips (the ones that can afford a comtip) can participate. And we wonder why there are not more youths at Hobie events.

Race open class, be honest and fair, have a great time, learn some new tricks or teach some (such as don't raise your mast near power lines), and sail. I have decided to race open class mainly because I want to keep the sport alive. You don't see only Fords in NASCAR, only Chevys, or only Dodges. No, they are all mixed in together. NASCAR tries to even them up just like portsmith rating try to even up sailboats. Currently, portsmith ratings are not the greatest, but it is the best so far. What do you think would happen to sports in general if we were to place limitations on events? Think about this:
Only white males and females born in southern California are allowed to participate in the Olympics....Only white males and females born in southern California are allowed to compete in the Olympics if they are wearing Nike shoes...

It is your call with the mast, but the most widely known North American catamaran race is the Worrell 1000 (now the Tybee 500). Did we see a Hobie in it? Not even a tiger. Now we saw plenty of tigers in Round Texel. Even saw a carbon fiber Fox in it for a short period of time. Tigers actually won on corrected (portsmith ratings, didn't I mention this earlier?) time, however, how many of these tigers had comptips...none. Let's put a comptip on them and see if they win. Hobie is easy to promote the fact that their tiger wins numerous open class events, but Hobie does not promote open class racing. What the #@%&^!

Its funny though because at most of these Hobie only regattas it is not a matter of who sails better, but instead, who has spent the most money with Hobie for new equipment. Most children are trying to go to school and have no desire to spend $350 for a comptip so that they can win a glass or plaque.

And we wonder why the sport is dying.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:55 pm 
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Hahah being that I won only because I was the only boat in my fleet, I may stay in C a little while longer..

I was hoping to use my place to guage how I doing, and what I need to work on, as well as feeling that I really acomplished something..

Brent.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:08 pm 
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Hobie 18,

First of all, the reason why the Tiger does not have a comptip mast is because it is produced in Europe, and does not have to abide by the requirement coming out of the lawsuites.

Second, You can not buy a brand new Hobie 18, they are no longer in production, and the argument between spending $200+ or so to race with a comptip on the boat you have, vs. $9000 - $15,000 for a new boat (With or without a comptip), is stupid at best.

Third, Again, comparing the Hobie Tiger to the Hobie 16,17,18 (One design production cats), is like comparing Apple's to Oranges, all boats may be designed by Hobie Cat, but they where made to fill two completely different purposes. The 1x, are strictly one design boats, made to complete in one design regatta's. Where as the Hobie 18 is designed specifically for the Formula 18 box rule, and better suited for open class racing.

Oh well, let the flame wars begin :evil:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:22 pm 
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Thank you very much! I don't have $15K, but I do have three sons in college. I'm trying to promote the sport with my oldest Son as crew. He was racing Lasers with NROTC but they cut the program (lack of funds) and sold the boats to U of Nebraska. Before I bought this 18 he was looking for a cheap Laser and now he's saving pennies for a H14 to play with. Now that to think a college kid can't show up at a regatta with his $800 14 to stay off the streets/internet/bar for a weekend, because it doesn't have a comptip? I'll say it...Hog Wash!

I think will just show up at the Division 7 Championships (Iowa) all aluminum and see what happens.

I guess we could buy two 14's and chase each other around or Hobies aren't the only cat in the world.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:32 pm 
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All this came out of the question of a comptip? I think this is the fastest growing discussion in a long time. If that is what it takes keep it up we need to talk.

I would like to see if the flaming can stay out of it. I have not seen anything in these posts that I would call flaming but Brent had a challenge for it.

Brent: I know that you do not feel great about your win. But you were on the course and that is really important to the rest of us to see that you are new in the group. I would have liked to see you scored with the rest then rewarded seperately. I would like to see all the scores for A's, B's and C's on one sheet if they all start together like they did this last weekend. Then put the classes of the sailors next to their number. So, let's say, that overall the first B fleeter came in 6th overall but was the first B. They get the first place trophy and know how they are progressing against the rest. That would have been a nice way to do it. Maybe not for the A fleeter that does not do well against the B boats, but what can you do? Welcome to the group.

Later,
Dan


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:46 pm 
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John,

Another alternative, is to find a cheap used 16 with a comp tip, I am sure you could find one for about 1k. That way you are your son could race together, or he could race with a friend, and stay out of a bar).

Keep in mind, Hobie Cat had to retrofit because of a court order, if it wasn't for that we would not have to worry about this. It would not make much marketing sense to go through such a controversial process, "but, dems da breaks".

Brent


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:00 pm 
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Brent,
I was not knocking you, just the comptip rule in general. You would think that Hobie would have better lawyers and would have been able to settle this without penalizing those that do not have comptips. And it only became a penality when they stopped paying for the conversion in full. A liability on their part does not constitute an emergency, or out of pocket situation, on my part. I don't feel they should have made it a mandatory class racing rule.
My issue of it being a safety item was not addressed so I will take it that it is only a legal issue. If this is the case then,....
John, sell all of your boats, your car, and get your son a job instead of sending him to college and buy a European Tiger because American law does not apply to European products if you really want to race.
By the way, I sail two 18s, one with a comptip and one without. Sometimes I race with and sometimes without. If you feel a need to protest me so that you can have the etched glass cup, go ahead. I still beat you!
Mike

I haven't won a glass cup in a while. I guess I better shut up and practice.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:50 pm 
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Quote:
If you feel a need to protest me so that you can have the etched glass cup, go ahead. I still beat you!


No you didn't. Your boat wasn't class legal. You didn't play on a level field - even when you sail Portsmouth because the ratings are based on(theoretically) class legal boats' times.

Most people don't race for the trophies. They race because it's fun to sail head-to-head against their friends, and then socialize and tell stories. But it's not fair if someone shows up with a custom made sail or they took the foam blocks out of the boat to make it ligher. Same thing with the Comptip. Everybody has one = level(er) playing field.

Now realistically, if a kid shows up at a regatta with a new (to him) $600 14 w/o Comptip and wants to race, I don't know a regatta organizer in this country that would turn them away. But after a time or two (and as pointed out above, they legally only get one "bye"), and as they improve, peer pressure usually kicks in. If they're really into it, a $300 is not that much to spend. Wait until they want new sailing duds ($$). A drysuit ($$$). New sails / trampoline ($$$$). New boat ($$$$$) :D


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