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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:35 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Northern Texas
Yeah, you are right. But the burden of proof is on you as the protestor to prove that this is not my first Hobie sanctioned race. Good luck! If you can't prove it, then I did beat you. Unfortunately, there are people in the world that do this kind of deception.
As for portsmouth ratings, there must not be a huge difference between a comptip mast or a all aluminum mast because I don't see a time difference for this anywhere and Hobie allows one race with this rating.
As for level playing field, this will never happen. The only playing field that even comes close to level is Tornado racing in the Olympics. If you truly want a level playing field then there must be adjustments for differences in crew weight, boat weight, and age of sails. A new sail will almost always beat an old sail, which I might say is what many people sail with unless they are the hardcore racers. Guys racing the Indy 500 were complaining about this in regards to the girl Danica Patrick. They stated that she was lighter than the men racing so they needed to add weight to her car. All of these people were trying to even the playing field for millions of dollars. We are talking about an etched glass cup. Get real.
I agree, I sail for the fun and that is why I said protest me. I could care less about the trophy. It is nice when you get one, but it doesn't always happen. My friends and myself will always know that yeah, you got the trophy, but I still won. You got the trophy on a rule based on a court decision that has nothing to do with performance. (Safety and Liability)
Believe it or not, in today's society, most kids are not interested in sitting around, drinking suds (if they are of age of course) with older people, and telling lies about sailing adventures they were never part of. Almost all of the Hobie sanctioned regattas that I have been to the youths are segregated off by themselves because they feel out of place. And to think if they decided to show up for a second regatta and be told, "You can't participate because you don't meet class rules. You don't have a comptip." The bar is sounding pretty good right now. My mom and dad are getting toasted at a Hobie regatta, all of their friends are there with them, so we stand no chance of getting caught here! I might have been there with them, but my parents decided that the $350 that was going to be used to buy and install my comptip was better spent on tuition.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:49 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:45 am
Posts: 759
Location: Clinton Lake Lawrence, KS
Mike, I'm with you partner. It's the rule that's ridiculous. I campaigned a 16, albiet 20 years ago, that I added knick-knacks to (within the guidelines of the rules) when I wanted to. Then all else was proven on the course. Tell me the word on the street is the 18's faster with the comp tip and I'm sheetin' and pinchin' and let's see whos number crosses the finish line first.

Shame on me for not researching the rules closer before purchasing this boat. The pPrevious owner is 60 and he bought the boat five years prior from a man who was then 68 years old. If either one was offered the opportunity, they probably turned it down.

Isn't this what one design racing is supposed to be all about? A '77, '87, '97 or who cares, just show up and show us what you've got?

You know, I could sign a little waiver absolving all responsibility to Hobie, the fleet, the Parks department and the Commodores' dog, then the fleet secretary could notorize it at the sign-in table. When I then blast off to the quick shop to buy a red bull before the skipper's meeting and electrocute my son while he's holding the sails down on the trampoline I'll be the one to blame. I used to hate collecting releases from the soccer moms!

THE RULE STINKS
still perturbed in kansas[/i][/b]

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hobiejohn at earthlink dot net
Fleet 297


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:39 pm
Posts: 433
Location: West Texas
So it comes back to "who's going to complain and/or protest you?" In talking with quite a few people, it only becomes an issue when (a) you're doing well enough to challenge the people who care enough to protest you and/or (b) you want to go to enough major events where people will recognize you from before and again care enough to bring up the comptip issue.

And if you're driving around to that many events then you can probably afford to buy a second mast (preferrably with the comptip already) off someone with a broken boat anyway.

I was pinging about this issue for a little while, but I give up. :lol: I'll get one eventually. Meanwhile if somebody wants to protest me for doing better than them having an aluminum mast then I'll happily concede knowing I beat them with an aluminum mast and 33 year old sails. ;)

Jim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:36 pm
Posts: 302
Location: San Diego, CA
Okay,

I think this issue is allmost dead, and again I will say....

I understand to a certain extent your frustration with the "sillyness" of some of the one design/one manufacture policy. I for one do not see a problem with people buying after market sails and trampolines as long as they conform to Hobie Cat Measurements, and in this situation I would be right up with you telling the person to go "Learn to Sail!"

However this is a slightly different issue, because here the rule was made not for measurements sake, or Hobie Cat nickle and diming you to buy more equipment. This was something that was decided by Hobie Cat out of necessity.. I myself to not know the exact situation regarding this decision. It could have been that after loosing several lawsuits it was decided that something needed to be done, less the company go bankrupt from paying out settlements, or since these are Points Regatta's HCA and the local fleets have insureance. It is possible that it was the insureance companies said they could not insure Hobie Cat if this issue was not addressed. The other issue here is that it is a rule intended to protect YOU the racer on the race course. I hate wearing a life jacket under my trap harness. I'm allready wearing a wet suit that is bouyant. Why can't I just strap it to the trampoline?! This is a stupid rule, and I just want to see someone protest me or the race comittee throw me out!

Second, although I want to promote the Hobie Class Regatta's, and get you and your kids to the fleet events, hearing you blatently say you refuse to follow class rules, and that if we protest you that you will tell us off? Then show up at the next regatta without a comptip mast because the burden of proof is on us? This is poor sportsmanship, and I am not sure I would want you on the water, at a sanctioned event or a open regatta, and it disturbes me even more you would promote this attitude to your children.

Bottom line, rules no matter how stupid are rules.. If you want to be a member of the group and come out and play fair, you have to follow those rules... Sorry..... Thats Life.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:51 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:39 pm
Posts: 433
Location: West Texas
I don't think that was his point, dood. I think he was just expressing frustration and saying "heck, just gimmie some waiver to sign if they're worried about lawsuits."

I'm not sure where you got the idea that he was trying to be dishonest. :?:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:45 am
Posts: 759
Location: Clinton Lake Lawrence, KS
OK, this is it and we're movin' on.

I don't wan't aftermarket sails or tramps. Then it's a money thing.

We as sailors promoting the sport need always be aware of overhead lines, especially when away from home. I know the National Electric Code minimum clearance over Roadways and Drives is less than the height of the comp tip and I'm not sure of high voltage codes but, one life lost to electrocution is too many. My first inquiry about the dry storage lot at our lake was "Are there overhead lines between the ramp and the lot?" and thier reply, "I don't know". The owness is on us.

I'll wish a little. I wish it was a law that the electrocution sticker was right there in your face every time you step the mast. I commend Hobie/Coleman for being the only sailboat manufacturer in the world to do this comp tip deal. I wish they'd give me a comp tip now, 20 years later. I wish they'd admit they took it one step too far by putting this non-safety retrofit in their IHCA rules.

Does anyone know where a guy just trying to have some fun could get one cheap?

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Fleet 297


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:35 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Northern Texas
John,
You are exactly right! :D Jamie, I agree. :wink: I think the guy missed the point. You have met me, even turtled with me and hopefully in the little amount of time we had on our boats you would be able to tell that:

1. I would not be dishonest.
2. I would not promote any kids to go to a bar instead of sailing.

bphendri12, I am sorry that you came to this conclusion about me over the rules concerning the comptip. :cry: I was just expressing areas of concern over the rule. Don't worry though because I have decided to race open class racing. :D I find two great pleasures in sailing. The freedom of being on the water itself and whipping up on Nacras, Prindles, Darts, Aquacats, and all of the other makes out there. :twisted: Sometimes I beat them, sometimes I don't. But it sure feels good when they post the race results and I can tell the other guys, "You should have bought a Hobie."

By the way John, it is ironic that the comptip is such a big issue. If you check IHCA Class racing rule #10.1 it states:

10.1 The Hobie 18 Magnum shall be raced with wings supplied by the Hobie Cat Co.

This already puts you at a weight disadvantage everytime you race with Hobie 18s. Most of the guys that I know with Magnums take their wings off and race with us, but they could be protested. I would never do it simply because I know that they don't know any better. Plus it helps us make class, which nowadays is becoming harder and harder.
Live long, sail fast, and always keep the pointy end up.


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 Post subject: Comptip
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:14 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:47 pm
Posts: 579
Location: San Diego
OK, the comptip retrofit really is a pain in the butt, and $300 is $300.

That said, I have been around a long time and have seen near disasters caused by simple human error. The people who have died were not all stupid people, just people who made a simple mistake and paid for it with their lives. The other manufactures have not had to do this because they did not have the deep pockets that Colman did and did not have anywhere near the number of boats in the water so the exposure to risk was no where near what Hobie had.

Here is the logic of the first case lost. Hobie 16 sailing on a lake hits a high tension power line. Most 16 foot boats have about a 16 foot mast plus about a foot freeboard where they are stepped. 17 feet off the water. The Hobie 16 has a 28 foot mast, plus a foot or so, 29 feet off the water. The over sized mast makes it a potentially dangerous product in comparison to other 16 foot sailboats. The jury looks at mom who saw her husband and son die as they sailed off the beach and Colman the deep pocketed company with money to burn. The sympathetic jury found for mom. Can you blame them. Precedence is set, and plantiff lawyers are off to the races so to speak. The comptip lowers the effective mast height to the length of a similar size monohull. Get it now?

Now, as to the deaths and near miss's I have either seen or had friends participate in rescue attempts.

Clairmont launch area in Long Beach. Prindle sailor Todd Moir steps his mast at the street side parking space right into the telephone cables this despite several people screaming for him to stop. He was lucky that it was a phone line.

A sailor at Midwinters west in San Felipe pushes his boat up the ramp and into a power line. He was tired after a weekend of sailing, and paid for his simple mistake with his life.

I have also seen boats towed into light post (about five of these), and trees next to powerlines.

There is a lake in San Diego called Lake Murray that is just waiting for someone to sail into the powerlines that cross the lake. I have talked to the lake rangers and told them about the risk and ask if they forbid sailboats due to the risk and they say no and that no one has ever had an issue with the powerlines.

If you sail in a new spot, especially lakes with fingers, if you are launching or rigging at a new spot, look for wires, light posts, trees. These hazards are obvious, but these are not always easy to see, so ask and look hard. I am shocked by the unsafe rigging and sailing areas I still see after years of sailing in San Diego.

It is like owning a swimming pool without a fence. There is a safer option, and it is not cost prohibitive. If your boat is ever involved with an accident of this type, due to a simple human error, and you didn't fix your boat because of cost ($300), you will loose everything. Take it from a guy that owns a $200 pool with a $1000 fence. Protecting your home, and other assets is worth $300. Time to pony up.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:55 am 
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Authorized Hobie Dealer

Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 7:35 pm
Posts: 1370
Location: 315 N. Hwy 79 Panama City Beach, FL 32413 850-235-2281
Everyone that is so tired of those rules and do not want to comply with them, are you a member for the Hobie class, Have you talked to your division chair. You will not be bale to change anything that has happened thus far in the class but deal with it, become a part of it and get involved and help shape the future of Hobie cat Sailing. As for the guy needing a Comptip, I am sure there is a H18 mast somewhere in the Florida panhandle that is okay but the hulls have fallen victim the hurricanes. If not they cost 236.28 plus shipping, this is for a retro fit only, we must have the serial number of hulls to insure that this boat has not been done before. If anyone would like info on how to join the class pleases let me know, GET INVOLVED!

Thanks,
Brad Stephens
www.sunjammers.com
Hobie Division 15 Chairman
Authorized Hobie/Vanguard/Hunter Dealer
brad@sunjammers.com
850-235-2281
Panama City Beach, FL


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:33 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:35 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Northern Texas
Quote:
Everyone that is so tired of those rules and do not want to comply with them, are you a member for the Hobie class, Have you talked to your division chair.


Yes, I am a member, Division 6 Fleet 64. :D Hobie has decided to exclude us because we promote all of sailing, not just Hobie. Because of this, I will probably not renew my membership next year.

And yes I have talked to our chair about this and as far as we are concerned as long as you are sailing and having a great time that is all that matters. :P Deal with the comptip rule at the Hobie only events. My kids and I actually have more fun at open events anyway. Just read some of the posts at www.texascitydike.com. We promote sailing at an extremely high level (and a little partaking of the spirits). We also have a large youth following because of our sailing and fun adventures.

Quote:
we must have the serial number of hulls to insure that this boat has not been done before.


So, if it has never been done, does this mean that he can have it done for free? Just wondering. :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:42 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 7:35 pm
Posts: 1370
Location: 315 N. Hwy 79 Panama City Beach, FL 32413 850-235-2281
We did replace them for free for years, I believe it stopped about 3 years ago. I am not sure how many years this went on where Hobie Cat Co. paid for all of the parts and labor, I am sure they assumed that all of the boats out there had been fixed that were still in operational order. if anyone was still actively racing they knew about the retro program. I agree that it is sad that people purchase boats where the previous owner did not keep there boat up to date but we have to go with what we have. Locally I usually help people install comptips free of charge if they are upgrading.

Thanks,
Brad Stephens
www.sunjammers.com
Hobie Division 15 Chairman
Authorized Hobie/Vanguard/Hunter Dealer
brad@sunjammers.com
850-235-2281
Panama City Beach, FL


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:59 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 8904
Location: Oceanside, California
CompTips were retrofitted for free for over 20 years... as Brad said, that came to an end years ago.

The CompTip issue is a "Catch 22". Not easy for anyone involved. They are safer for sure and not all that expensive for someone that wants to upgrade, but we are talking some really old boats at this point. These have been standard since 1985.

If you want to read more about peoples opinions about it, do a search on this forum and others. It comes up over and over and over again. Like the boats that don't have them... the issues are old and well worn.

The Hobie Class Association has a charter to promote Hobie Class Sailing and Racing. That includes abiding by International Hobie Class rules that are recognized by ISAF because of the International Class Status of many of our boats. It is all pretty simple really. No one is trying to alienate anyone. They are just trying to be what they are… the HOBIE Class Association.

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Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:28 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:39 pm
Posts: 433
Location: West Texas
Which goes back to the point that I made earlier - if you're just showing up to the occasional nearby event for the fun and cameraderie then it's probably not a big deal.
If, however, you're serious about Hobie class racing then that'll involve lots of driving around; and if you can afford all those trips you should be able to afford a used mast.

Myself, I'm at the point where I'm keeping my eyes open for a mast in the area but I won't go too far out of my way to get one. Like Matt said, the boats old enough to have an all-aluminum mast are getting pretty old and a newer boat with the comptip will also probably be lighter and more competative anyway. If you're a serious racer. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:41 pm 
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Location: Northern Texas
Quote:
Like the boats that don't have them... the issues are old and well worn.


That is until an American citizen gets shocked by a Tiger mast. :shock: Then litigation will start all over again. That is unless they signed a waiver when they purchased the boat.

Jamie, how do you plan on fitting that mast into your duffle bag to get it back to the states! :P Stay in the A/C over there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:22 pm 
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Location: West Texas
:shock: I didn't think of that.

Hahah just kidding, I meant when I get back I'll keep my eyes open. :)


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