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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:14 am 
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Are velocitech speedpucks legal for racing?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:48 am 
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Tallguy1 wrote:
Are velocitech speedpucks legal for racing?

No.

The relevant rule is IHCA General Class Rule 16.3:
Quote:
16.3 Compasses with brackets or electronic devices that provide timing and heading memory but which do not transmit, transfer or receive data are permitted. The use of navigation and speed
metering equipment is illegal unless specifically allowed in the individual boat rules or by the Notice of Race for the particular event or regatta.

It's the "receive data" part that makes them illegal. If they didn't receive a GPS signal, they'd be legal.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:07 am 
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Just good for training then I suppose,

thanks!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:24 am 
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MBounds wrote:
Tallguy1 wrote:
Are velocitech speedpucks legal for racing?

No.

The relevant rule is IHCA General Class Rule 16.3:
Quote:
16.3 Compasses with brackets or electronic devices that provide timing and heading memory but which do not transmit, transfer or receive data are permitted. The use of navigation and speed
metering equipment is illegal unless specifically allowed in the individual boat rules or by the Notice of Race for the particular event or regatta.

It's the "receive data" part that makes them illegal. If they didn't receive a GPS signal, they'd be legal.


I'm not sure of the logic behind this rule. Why and probably more importantly when did it come into effect?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:59 am 
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Oh crap... Ya'll are going to get me into another rule I can't really make any sense of..


:lol:

Using a 500 dollar TackTick (I see RayMarine has brought the price down a little now) is about the only Class Legal compass which could actually be off any real use in competition... Anything less than that as far as I can tell isn't easy to see, or just doesn't provide valuable information.

Yet somehow it is illegal to use a 50 dollar andriod phone/device for the same purpose because it could help you judge the start line or tell you VMG if you have somehow manged to program in all of those way points... Frankly I would prefer my competition to be staring at some device instead of paying attention to the course! :twisted:


I think the advancement of techonlogy has outdated the reasons and purposes for this rule. IMO it would be good for the class to have as many GPS recording devices on the boats as possible. Then folks at home through apps like http://raceqs.com/ could enjoy the and help promote the events. It would be great fun, and create very teachable situations.

Everyone already has a GPS device today... I just don't see what the problem is?


Last edited by ronholm on Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:21 am 
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In Club racing this season, many of our cat fleet sailors switched over to raceqs.com, and put their smart phones into those special waterproof ziplock bags you can wear around your neck or carry in the pocket of a PFD. The idea was that we could all save and download our tracks. Then, after racing, we would compare lay lines and the like.

Also good to tie that data into videos for those using GoPro's.

Matt B will be able to confirm that the rule about 'use of electronic devices' was meant as an equalizing rule... to prevent unfair advantage. Whether that still applies in this 'wired' age is a good question.... will it create an 'arms race'?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:54 am 
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Quote:
The use of navigation and speed
metering equipment is illegal


So if you had out of reach and site your phone (or Garmin virb) logging GPS files to view on RaceQ ONLY for use after racing is that protestable "use" of "navigation and speed metering equipment"?

Or in order to violate the rule do you have to 'use' or view the information provided by such equipment during the actual course of racing?

By the same standard, if that is indeed allowed, could it be argued that one could 'use' the compass function of a speedpuck and not 'use' the "speed" features?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:24 pm 
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ronholm wrote:
Quote:
The use of navigation and speed
metering equipment is illegal


So if you had out of reach and site your phone (or Garmin virb) logging GPS files to view on RaceQ ONLY for use after racing is that protestable "use" of "navigation and speed metering equipment"?

Or in order to violate the rule do you have to 'use' or view the information provided by such equipment during the actual course of racing?

By the same standard, if that is indeed allowed, could it be argued that one could 'use' the compass function of a speedpuck and not 'use' the "speed" features?

LOL

So under Hobie Class rules a compass is not navigation equipment? :mrgreen:

This is easy to address at the club level. Just allow GPS devices in the SI's and warn everyone you will do so in the notice of race. It is national and international events that use the class rule that will prevent the use of these devices.

I would ask the RC about using a data recorder for coaching/learning after racing. Technically recording devices that can transfer data are not permitted. This would include any GPS data logger.

Nothing prevents you from using these tools during training and as you point out: ... Frankly I would prefer my competition to be staring at some device instead of paying attention to the course! :twisted:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:44 pm 
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RHoughVYC wrote:
MBounds wrote:
Tallguy1 wrote:
Are velocitech speedpucks legal for racing?

No.

The relevant rule is IHCA General Class Rule 16.3:
Quote:
16.3 Compasses with brackets or electronic devices that provide timing and heading memory but which do not transmit, transfer or receive data are permitted. The use of navigation and speed
metering equipment is illegal unless specifically allowed in the individual boat rules or by the Notice of Race for the particular event or regatta.

It's the "receive data" part that makes them illegal. If they didn't receive a GPS signal, they'd be legal.


I'm not sure of the logic behind this rule. Why and probably more importantly when did it come into effect?

John Lunn has already provided the "why" part of this answer.

The when dates back quite a while. The rule evolved from "Compasses may be added" (1981). In 1994, the phrase "All other electronics are prohibited with the exception of radios" (with restrictions on radio use) was added.

Then, strangely, the rule was changed in 2002 to say, "Compasses, navigation and speed metering equipment of any type are permitted."

The rule (16.3) in its current form shows up in the 2005 version of the class rules. I'm not sure why it was changed from the 2002 version.

It's been ten years, and technology has certainly changed much in that time - both in features and in lower cost.

I know the F-18 class has wrestled with this issue and they still ban the on-board use of GPS (GPS can be turned on and recording, but not used during an around-the-buoys race).


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:00 pm 
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MBounds wrote:
It's been ten years, and technology has certainly changed much in that time - both in features and in lower cost.

I know the F-18 class has wrestled with this issue and they still ban the on-board use of GPS (GPS can be turned on and recording, but not used during an around-the-buoys race).


Thanks for the background!

Before I go through the ISAF site ... do other ISAF dinghy classes allow GPS devices? Is the Hobie rule consistent? I'm sure this is an issue for every class and we should be in-line with other double-handers. I'm pretty sure Laser and Opti prohibit anything but a compass.

I only ask because I started sailing small boats but years in bigger boats doing random leg courses has me used to having more instrumentation than a compass and I have a phone ... 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:41 pm 
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Mike from Thunder Bay.... chime in please. I know you are active in more than Hobie classes. What was your experience in Europe?

I'll ask my 505 and Fireball and I-14 guys....

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:00 pm 
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Reply from my I-14 buddy.... where there are very few restrictions....

"As long as there isn't something in the class rules, it's fair game. (Assumes you aren't getting information that isn't readily available to other competitors.)

At the last two I-14 world championships, we saw a lot of boats with Velocitek Prostarts (can be purchased locally through CCI), which takes GPS readings to give velocity, heading, and even allows you to determine mid-line sag. On the Blue Footed Boobie, we sail with a GPS speedometer and a tactic micro compass."

My own impression is that I-14's spend more time in the water than looking at electronic guides, speedpucks etc.
See http://m.youtube.com/channel/UCBBl1wJp7yOMljFdFpZ2oFQ
The best of bloopers is at http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=IPMoRr1Ju7E

Reply from my F18 buddy....

"Section C5 of the F18 rules Allows such devices.. sort of...

C.5 PORTABLE EQUIPMENT
C.5.1 FOR USE
(a) MANDATORY
(1) One righting line, minimum 4 metres long and 10 mm minimum diameter.
(2) One steering compass.
(b) OPTIONAL
(1) Steering compasses.
(2) Mechanical timing devices. Mechanical wind indicators.
(3) Electronic devices that provide timing, heading, and heading memory but which do not transmit or receive data.
(4) When required by the Notice of Race for long distance courses,organisers may require further equipment, such as VHF, mobile phone, GPS or tracking devices, Emergency Positioning Indicating radio beacons (EPIRB) devices, knife, mirror, whistle, flares, flashlights, first aid set.
C.5.2 FOR USE
(a) MANDATORY
(1) Towing line of 15 metres long and 6 mm minimum diameter.
(b) OPTIONAL
(1) When required in the Notice of Race, one paddle with minimum total length of 1000 mm. The paddle blade shall be minimum 140 mm etc."

Seems to me F18's have the best of both worlds.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:13 pm 
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I think the best set of rules for an H16 would be to allow whatever data/information one could gather from an iphone...... ie. GPS, and all the calcutions which could be extraploted from that... Limiting it to only what you can figure out from the boat, ie. GPS satellites or any other source free to anyone on the course.

Outright banning of receiving and transmitting as I have seen in the rules creates a weird situation though... Even though your Gopro Camera doesn't have GPS, it has wifi and can "transmit" data... The way I read the rule this should technically be a violation. Sure, everyone generally understands the spirit of the rule, yet what does the rule actually require or allow as it is written? Same goes for a nearly any smart phone. This IMO is what creates the problem. The whole idea in the rule is to prevent a technology war, yet in order to use the cheapest most readily available form of the technology allowed, you have to trust folks are going to keep the phone in airplane mode... You certainly don't want some guy sailing around with a bluetooth in his ear taking direction from a coach. Even worse, you don't want idiots sitting around protesting because some other guys phone rang during a race... (which would be protestable under current rules correct? )

I would think as long as you don't have your boat outfitted like an AC 72 gathering data with electronic tell tales all over the thing compounding and relaying data from 500 different points, and you don't have 6 different weather stations setup on the course helping you pick a side... Who cares?

So how do you write that rule?



And if we are trying to draw a younger crowd? Why not let them play with toys they are already familiar with?


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