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Carbon fiber tillers
http://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=32914		 Page 1 of 8
Author:  mmadge [ Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Carbon fiber tillers
What are the chances of the North American Hobie Class approving (like the IHCA) Carbon Fiber tiller extensions with rubber universals.Pretty much evey other one design class from Sunfishes to 49ers all the top sailors are using this combination.Like I said in an earlier post the carbon fiber tillers are a treat to sail with.I am thinking the rubber univesal would act as somewhat of a ground,better yet stay off the Lake when lightening is approaching.
Author:  mmiller [ Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon fiber tillers
You can still cross contact the rail, castings, a wing or other metal to create a ground. That seems to make this unworkable if electrocution is the reason for the rule here.
Author:  gthomas [ Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon fiber tillers
Submit the question to the class association to start some dialogue with them regarding this. I'd be all for it.

[email protected]
Author:  mmadge [ Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon fiber tillers
gthomas wrote:
Submit the question to the class association to start some dialogue with them regarding this. I'd be all for it.

[email protected]


I will do that,I have already been in contact with Pat Porter (Vice Chairman) on this issue.More vocies the better.
Author:  xanderwess [ Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon fiber tillers
Bobby Edmonds has been asking me the same thing for quite a while now.
Author:  mmadge [ Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon fiber tillers
Copy of e-mail sent to the rules comittee

I would like to submit a proposal that the NAHCA look into aproving Carbon Fiber tillers.Every other One Design Class allows for the use of these (including the IHCA).I think you will find only the top racers would be the ones interested in investing in these and they would probably only use them for racing purposes,thus eliminating them as a hazard.Also they can be attached to the tiller bar with a non conductive rubber universal.
Mike Madge
Author:  xanderwess [ Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon fiber tillers
Rule change for US has to start here, so send me a letter, with pics if you can, and I'll get a group of people together to research it and give it the go or no then we'll (as a group) submit it to the Rules Committee. I would prefer the HCA-NA act as a unit with rules changes.
Jeremy Leonard is ALWAYS on this committee and he picks a few other interested parties then writes a report. Its awesome.
Look forward to seeing it.
cw
Author:  hobie18rich [ Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon fiber tillers
Standard Equiptment on the Wildcat. Next get rid of the silly plastic mast tip.
Author:  MBounds [ Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon fiber tillers
hobie18rich wrote:
Next get rid of the silly plastic mast tip.

Snowball's chance in Hell on that one.

My 16's so light (312 lbs), I'm looking for ways to add weight, not remove it.

Also, I'd rather replace a $96 stock stick when it breaks than a fancy-dancy carbon stick that costs >$300.

And if you think a carbon stick will give you a competitive advantage, think again. If you want a competitive advantage, spend more time on the water, not $ on the boat.

Take a look at IHCA General Class Rule #2:
Quote:
2. INTENT AND OBJECTIVE
Hobie Catamarans are designed to be easy to sail with the least amount of trouble to owners. Boat and component changes, which have no direct bearing upon boat speed, are the only changes allowed. The intent and objective of the
INTERNATIONAL HOBIE CLASS ASSOCIATION (IHCA) RULES are:
a) To keep each boat as equal, simple and cost free as possible by rigidly maintaining, without deviation, the one-design features of the Hobie Cat for class racing.
b) To increase boat speed only through the use of racing tactics and sailing skills

This proposal is more likely to fail on this aspect than anything else.
Author:  srm [ Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon fiber tillers
I understand the intent of this rule, but has anyone ever actually gotten hurt or killed as a direct result of a conductive tiller extension (on any type of boat)?

I think it would be very beneficial to see actual comparative conductivities of fiberglass, aluminum, and carbon fiber tiller extensions as well as mainsheets, both dry and wet before making a rule change.

Quote:
Also, I'd rather replace a $96 stock stick when it breaks than a fancy-dancy carbon stick that costs >$300.

And if you think a carbon stick will give you a competitive advantage, think again.


Nobody's forcing you to buy a lightweight stick, and per your own statement, it doesn't give a competitive advantage, so what's the big deal? $96 for a basic pultruded fiberglass stick seems a little outrageous to me.

sm
Author:  Mugrace72 [ Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon fiber tillers
Hobie USA has chosen to live or die by the Comptip. We just have to accept that.

The non-conductive tiller extension is rather difficult to rationalize however.

Aren't you either sitting on, standing on/near, or grasping onto actual metal objects such as aluminum beams, x-bar, SS shrouds and trapeze wires and such? Is it worse to get ZAPPPED in the hand or the A$$?

Where will this charge of electricity come from?

Vitually all mast to ground electrocutions regarding sailboats occur on land, at boat ramps and shoreside facilities, with people standing next to and touching the boat.

Is there any evidence that a conductive tiller extension has been involved in a sailboat electricution, or even minor shocking?

And... just how conductive is a CF stick that is coated with epoxy, especially when attached with a rubber connector?
Author:  mmadge [ Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon fiber tillers
Matt,might want to re check your prices.Acme carbon fiber tiller with Ronstand rubber universal 96" comes in well under $200.
As far as a competitive edge,nobody said anything about that,maybe convienience.Instead of tossing a heavy fiberglass tiller around much easier with a light carbon fiber one.Also will not chip up your fancy "carbon fiber" rudders when sailing with one rudder up.
Not much different then adding the 6:1 down haul,again more of a convenience then a necessity.You are right most sailors do not want to fork out the extra cash for these tillers,but you should have the option to do so if you wish.
Author:  mmadge [ Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon fiber tillers
From Eric Olsen

Hi Mike,



Thank you very much for your e-mail.



The matter is ruled by General Rule 11.1:



The tiller extension may be either an extendable or non-extendable design but shall be a single tiller with one end connected to the crossbar in the same location as the factory supplied tiller. THE TILLER EXTENSION SHALL BE MADE OF A NONELECTRICAL CONDUCTIVE MATERIAL ON ALL NORTH AMERICAN REGION BOATS. NONELECTRICAL CONDUCTIVE TILLER EXTENSIONS ARE RECOMMENDED ON ALL BOATS WORLDWIDE.



The restrictions against the use of conductive tiller extensions, which includes the carbon ones, applies to the North American Region only. The rest of the world are allowed to use tiller extensions of whatever material although the class recommends they are made of non-conductive material.



From the understanding I have got from the Hobie Cat Company the restriction for HCA-NA region goes back to the US liability laws in the same way as with Comptip masts. We have discussed the same issue some years back and at that time the representatives I talked to from your region were in favor of maintaining the current rule. However, if your e-mail means, that HCA-NA has changed its position, we will of course be open to discuss the matter again and if found to have merit to initiate a formal rule change procedure. Therefore, please let me know if the proposal is representing a new HCA-NA position? Thanks.





Best regards

IMHO I think this would be an easy rule to over turn, seeing as the rest of the World is exempt from it.Now up to the HCA-NA higher authorities if they wish to pursue.
Author:  Sail Revolution [ Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon fiber tillers
hobie18rich wrote:
Standard Equiptment on the Wildcat.


...and standard or an option on most other catamarans on the planet. I wouldn't even worry about the 'tendon' style connector, go stainless.

Submit it. We'll review it in an official capacity.
Author:  mmadge [ Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon fiber tillers
I already have submitted it to Eric Olsen, he now needs to hear from the higher authorities on the HCA NA that they are in support of this posistion.
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