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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:57 am 
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mmadge wrote:
I guess that makes me an idiot to (which I and most other people already knew).I think your opinon is right on the mark.

BTW $165 for a 96" Carbon Fiber Tiller made by ACME,that includes tendon universal.Ronstand actually sell there's for $153.


I've had trouble with both of those breaking on the a-class. I would suggest something higher quality for a 16. The 16 is brutal on the tiller.

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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:28 pm 
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Karl Brogger wrote:
The thing about using a lighter tiller isn't about saving weight overall on the boat, its about making cleaner tacks. Swinging any extra weight around makes it harder to keep from wiggling the rudders, which can kill a tack.

Do some dry tacking practice on land where the rudders have basically zero resistance, and watch how much you are flailing the tiller when you swing it around the back. Even with one hand holding the tiller crossbar and braced against the rear beam, it still happens with out a lot of practice.


Im going to play the pesimist on this one, because I dont view this as being a nessicary or needed change.

Karl in response to your post... of course you will see rudder wiggle on dry land, because as you stated, you have No Resistance. However, when the rudders are in the water, the water will resist they movement of the rudder blade, causing less wiggle, granted their will be a minute amount of turblance always, no matter what tiller you are using.

At the same time, this small amount of turblance that is created is happening when you are at the slowest part of your tack. Not a signifigant reason to spend the $ and switch in my mind.

The tendon style connector (ronstan $12) on the other hand, will take most of the extra slop out of the rudder system, by the way this is class legal with no rules change.

If any rule were to be changed, I would rather see them allow spectra/dynema trap lines.

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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:41 pm 
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Play nice with each other boys, or I'll seperate you!


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:58 pm 
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My post was purely for sake of friendly discussion.
You will get opisition if you propose this to the IHCA, might be good to have it worked out first...

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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:07 pm 
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Just (censored) with you. Try decaf.


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:05 pm 
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Two things with the tendon connectors

1. Buy a few extra's, and inspect them. Any rips in the rubber part and it isn't long for this world. There's a cord in there so you shouldn't lose everything, but its a real pisser when they break on the water.
2. If you aren't sailing take the tiller extension off of the tiller crossbar. I've gotten into the habit of taking mine off coming into the beach anyway just so it doesn't hang up the main traveler, or get swept off the back and broken when the boat is pushed backwards.


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:11 pm 
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Tom Machette wrote:
Karl in response to your post... of course you will see rudder wiggle on dry land, because as you stated, you have No Resistance. However, when the rudders are in the water, the water will resist they movement of the rudder blade, causing less wiggle, granted their will be a minute amount of turblance always, no matter what tiller you are using.


Baloney! Watch some of the really, really good sailors tack, and there is no, zero, zilch, nadda, wiggle in the rudders. Off or on the water. Practice and lots of it is what it takes though. Its actually easier on land, you don't have the boat pitching around, or inertial forces at work, and everything is dry and stable. You just don't notice it on the water because you've got a zillion other things in your head going on.

Tom Machette wrote:
If any rule were to be changed, I would rather see them allow spectra/dynema trap lines.


That rule should be changed just from a cost perspective. Dyneema is way cheaper to make traplines out of. Plus they don't wear on your sail as much.


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:21 am 
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Surf City Catamarans wrote:
mmadge wrote:
I guess that makes me an idiot to (which I and most other people already knew).I think your opinon is right on the mark.

BTW $165 for a 96" Carbon Fiber Tiller made by ACME,that includes tendon universal.Ronstand actually sell there's for $153.


I've had trouble with both of those breaking on the a-class. I would suggest something higher quality for a 16. The 16 is brutal on the tiller.


actually I have had pretty good luck with the ACME Fatso version.Most of the 49ers use the Fatso JR.Maybe Bob Edmonds can come up with a nice design.


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:35 am 
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mmadge wrote:
Actually I have had pretty good luck with the ACME Fatso version.Most of the 49ers use the Fatso JR.Maybe Bob Edmonds can come up with a nice design.

I've been to Bob's facility and unless he's prepared to invest in a lot of tooling (mandrels, spinning machines, curing ovens, etc.), he's not going to be making carbon fiber tubes anytime soon.

The Arriba stick outer shells are made from pre-preg sleeves that slide over a relatively short mandrel, then covered with a silicone "condom". The whole thing goes into a vertical "pressure cooker" where it's cured with heat and pressure. The "condom" is what gives the outer shell its texture. Everything else is outsourced, then the parts are assembled in his shop.

There's nothing special about buying carbon tubes and sticking an elastomer tendon on one end and a grip on the other.

While I agree with Tom Machette on this one for the 16 (keep it simple and cost free), I'd like to see a CF tiller on the 17. That's some serious length to deal with.


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:17 am 
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A lot of 16 sailors like myself like to have a longer tiller.90"+ is still a lot of tiller to swing around.Not sure simple and cost is an issue.We voted in the 6:1 down haul which is 4-5 times the cost of the 3:1 version.What is more complicated with a carbon tiller,in fact with the tendon universal it is easier to remove and less slop.The hobie 20 style tiller arm connectors where an expensive option to reduce slop.


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:34 am 
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1) The top guys in Mohave were not using the 6:1 downhaul. They've discovered that mast rake is more important than downhaul - with a slack downhaul, you can get more mast rake. Even in the heaviest air, Quique still had wrinkles in the luff of the main upwind - and crazy mast rake. Even the other Puerto Ricans thought so.

2) It took 3 years to get the 6:1 downhaul approved. Just sayin'.

3) A carbon tiller is not stock equipment and represents a several hundred dollar upgrade. H-20 tiller connectors are stock equipment on a 16 and have been for a long time.


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:56 am 
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There you go as stated earlier 6:1 down haul is more a convience then necessiity.
As far as taking 3 yrs to get it approved probavbly a little apathy had something to do with that.As I recall only 24 people in the HCA news letter voted for it.
And yes 20 style connectors have been stock for about 15 yrs or so ( pretty sure the increase in price of boat offset that for the company).While 15 yrs from now (if I am still around) we could be saying carbon fiber tillers where approved 15 years ago,not asking for them to be stock.


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:26 pm 
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Surf City Catamarans wrote:
7) What about carbon with heat shrink like the new stock tiller? Now that IS non conductive.

Gotta go. Have some manufacturing to do. Who wants to try the first one?

Jeremy
Idiot with opinions.


I'll be your guinea pig. How much and one piece or extendable?

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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:01 pm 
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The only rule preventing the use of carbon fiber tiller extensions at this time is general rule 11.1 (non-conductive material), so IMO, the performance and cost issues are really irrelevant. If someone were to build a tiller extension right now that was made from an exotic, non-conductive material, and that extension weighed a 1/4 pound, retailed for $500, and was considered to have “no direct bearing upon boat speed”, that tiller would be entirely legal, correct?

I don’t see any way you can build a carbon fiber tiller and call it non-conductive regardless of whether it’s coated in a thin layer of epoxy or is fitted with a non-conductive “sheath”. One of the main constituents of the extension is a highly conductive material. If you coated an aluminum tiller with a layer of epoxy, would you consider that extension non-conductive? I wouldn’t.

So the real question is, what is the likelihood of HCA and Hobie Cat repealing general rule 11.1? Unfortunately, since this is potential a safety issue, I don’t see it happening.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:27 pm 
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srm wrote:
The only rule preventing the use of carbon fiber tiller extensions at this time is general rule 11.1 (non-conductive material), so IMO, the performance and cost issues are really irrelevant. If someone were to build a tiller extension right now that was made from an exotic, non-conductive material, and that extension weighed a 1/4 pound, retailed for $500, and was considered to have “no direct bearing upon boat speed”, that tiller would be entirely legal, correct?

No. Refer to IHCA General Class Rules 1, 2 and 4:
Quote:
1. ONE-DESIGN CLASS RACING
The design and development of Hobie Catamarans are directed towards strict one-design classes where the true test is between sailors and sailing skill, and not boats. Any alterations to the hull form, construction, equipment, spars, sails or running rigging, as supplied by the builder except as is specifically authorized by these rules, are a breach of these rules, both in spirit and in substance, and are prohibited.

2. INTENT AND OBJECTIVE
Hobie Catamarans are designed to be easy to sail with the least amount of trouble to owners. Boat and component changes, which have no direct bearing upon boat speed, are the only changes allowed. The intent and objective of the
INTERNATIONAL HOBIE CLASS ASSOCIATION (IHCA) RULES are:
a) To keep each boat as equal, simple and cost free as possible by rigidly maintaining, without deviation, the one-design features of the Hobie Cat for class racing.
b) To increase boat speed only through the use of racing tactics and sailing skills

Quote:
4. LOOPHOLES
IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE FOUND A LOOPHOLE, READ THE PRECEDING STATEMENTS AGAIN. THESE ARE THE BASIS OF THE RULES AND COVER ALL AREAS NOT COVERED IN THE RULES. GENERALLY, IF YOU CANNOT FIND IT LISTED IN THE RULES, IT IS NOT CLASS LEGAL. IF YOU ARE IN DOUBT, CHECK WITH THE IHCA FIRST. APPROVAL MUST BE IN WRITING.


A lot of people tend to forget that these rules are the basis of the Hobie One-Design concept.


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