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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:03 pm 
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A lot of people tend to forget that these rules are the basis of the Hobie One-Design concept.


Ok, so carbon fiber tiller extensions are legal for Hobie racing in other parts of the world, right? Then why would they be considered a breach of the general rules in North America? Frankly, I don't see how a carbon fiber tiller extension could be considered to have more cost or performance impact than say upgrading from plastic to EPO rudders. If carbon fiber was non-conductive, would this still be an issue?

In any case, as I see it, before there can be any hope of allowing carbon fiber tiller extensions, general rule 11.1 is going to have to be repealed. Is there any realistic chance of that happening?

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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:13 pm 
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We should be making an effort to get agreement on rules across all of the IHCA regions. This is a good first step.

At some point in the next 20 years the Hobie 16 class will need to go to a BYOB World Championship. Since it's going to take us that long to get universal rules across all regions I'd say it's best to start now with something small and relatively easy.

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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:19 pm 
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srm wrote:
Ok, so carbon fiber tiller extensions are legal for Hobie racing in other parts of the world, right?

I don't know if anyone has challenged their legality in other parts of the world. Theoretically, the IHCA would have issued a ruling on it.

It's not the same as EPO rudders because they come stock on the boat now - and they're made by Hobie Cat. As far as I know, there is no Hobie Cat branded carbon fiber tiller extension, or one that comes stock on the boat.


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:20 am 
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BobMerrick wrote:
We should be making an effort to get agreement on rules across all of the IHCA regions. This is a good first step.

At some point in the next 20 years the Hobie 16 class will need to go to a BYOB World Championship. Since it's going to take us that long to get universal rules across all regions I'd say it's best to start now with something small and relatively easy.


A BYOB event in the next 20 years might be a little optimistic.I think it is an idea whose time has come already.Pretty large burden for any region to unload 60+ brand new boats.

Back to the tiller argument.The two main feed back sensory feelings on any small boat come from the tiller and sheets.Both of which should be personal preferences.How many different main sheets do you see at a Nationals,some of which cost a lot more then a tiller upgrade.In terms of tillers this idea of one size fits all is out dated.I am 5-8 and like to hold the tiller up by my head,85" is too short.I cannott imagine what a tall sailor would do.Yes I can buy the longer Hobie 17 tiller and cut it down but that is just more weight and cumbersome to throw around.
In terms of simplicity and cost efficient design I think our class matches up relativly well with the Laser and Sunfish class. These are the only two other One Designs that provide boats for there World Events (SunFish Like our class is every secound year).At both of these classes World events competitors bring there own tillers and mainsheets.BTW you would be hard pressed to see any one with the exception of Sue Pegel sailing with the original stock wood tiller,most all use Carbon fiber (yes even on the Sunfish).


Last edited by mmadge on Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:34 am 
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I would argue that the economics of a worlds event (especially in our current state of world affairs) will sooner than later necessitate a BYOB event.


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:14 am 
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xanderwess wrote:
I would argue that the economics of a worlds event (especially in our current state of world affairs) will sooner than later necessitate a BYOB event.


Who are you arguing with? :)


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:08 am 
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Being the devils advocate,if it is difficult to prove wether or not a carbon fiber tiller is conductive,and you used one and were protested,what would happen from there. :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:29 am 
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mmadge wrote:
Being the devils advocate,if it is difficult to prove wether or not a carbon fiber tiller is conductive,and you used one and were protested,what would happen from there. :twisted:

Putting on my judge's hat (and I am a certified US SAILING judge), I would look to the class rules, especially this one:
Quote:
4. LOOPHOLES
IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE FOUND A LOOPHOLE, READ THE PRECEDING STATEMENTS AGAIN. THESE ARE THE BASIS OF THE RULES AND COVER ALL AREAS NOT COVERED IN THE RULES. GENERALLY, IF YOU CANNOT FIND IT LISTED IN THE RULES, IT IS NOT CLASS LEGAL. IF YOU ARE IN DOUBT, CHECK WITH THE IHCA FIRST. APPROVAL MUST BE IN WRITING.

Carbon fiber is conductive. That's a fact. Unless you've got a letter from the IHCA saying that carbon fiber tiller extensions are legal in the North American Region . . .

DSQ.

Knowing that you knew about this in advance, I'd might consider a RRS 2 protest which, if upheld, would be a DNE (Disqualification Not Excludable).

Measurement protests are severely frowned upon, especially when there is foreknowledge and intent to bend the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:43 am 
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So when Graham Southwick (fiji) and Worrall (Aust) sailed in the N.A 's in Alamito Ca with carbon fiber tillers apparently no one blinked an eye.Should not the race commitee protested them or the measurement team?
Or did most people recognize this for what it was just two sailors not trying to bend the rules or gain any advantage.I think as a race comitee or participant I would be more concerned with the weight issue of the boat or competitors.I know everyone gets weighed at the beginning,not sure I have ( in the 4 N.A.s and 1 Worlds I have participated in ) ever seen a team or boat get re- weighed.


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:03 am 
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While the race committee has the right to protest a competitor for a breach of any rule, it is rarely exercised. As a race officer, I tend not to protest, unless the infraction is particularly egregious (damage, injury, etc.). I want the sailors to police themselves. That's the way it's supposed to work. If one of my RC team notices an infraction, I'll have them note it and we'll be happy to be a witness if there is a protest.

The only time a race committee is required to protest is when they receive a written report from an equipment inspector or measurer regarding clothing weight (RRS 43.2(c)) or compliance with class rules (RRS 78.3).

Competitors often look the other way for infractions such as the one you mention, but you are dancing a very fine line if you knowingly violate a class rule. If it goes to a protest hearing, you will lose.

There is a little known incident that occurred at the 1999 Hobie 16 Continentals - on the last day of the event, a competitor was found to have been intentionally sailing without his crew corrector weights. In lieu of a Rule 69 (Gross Misconduct) hearing, he was asked to withdraw from the event, which he did. It was if he was never there. I don't think he ever raced Hobies again.


Last edited by MBounds on Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:26 am 
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What about a mark boat protesting the committee...or vise versa.

:wink: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:59 am 
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MBounds wrote:
While the race committee has the right to protest a competitor for a breach of any rule, it is rarely exercised. As a race officer, I tend not to protest, unless the infraction is particularly egregious (damage, injury, etc.). I want the sailors to police themselves. That's the way it's supposed to work. If one of my RC team notices an infraction, I'll have them note it and we'll be happy to be a witness if there is a protest.

The only time a race committee is required to protest is when they receive a written report from an equipment inspector or measurer regarding clothing weight (RRS 43.2(c)) or compliance with class rules (RRS 78.3).

Competitors often look the other way for infractions such as the one you mention, but you are dancing a very fine line if you knowingly violate a class rule. If it goes to a protest hearing, you will lose.

There is a little known incident that occurred at the 1999 Hobie 16 Continentals - on the last day of the event, a competitor was found to have been intentionally sailing without his crew corrector weights. In lieu of a Rule 69 (Gross Misconduct) hearing, he was asked to withdraw from the event, which he did. It was if he was never there. I don't think he ever raced Hobies again. He also happened to be a Canadian :wink: .


A Canadian "EH",I find that hard to believe.Not because we are above that type of mischievious behavior,but more because I cannott think of one Canadian that would of had high enough ranking to justify making it worth while to protest.Not in the Hobie 16 fleet,we have had a couple top ranked Hobie 18 sailors.


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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:37 pm 
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At the 2010 F18 NAs, we were weighing the top three teams as they came off the water each day. We used to do that in the 16s, but we've gotten away from it recently.

At the 1997 Hobie 17 Continentals, two sailors were tossed when their centerboard control lines were too long. That's still a hot button issue in the 17s.


Last edited by MBounds on Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:47 pm 
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True North


Last edited by mmadge on Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Carbon fiber tillers
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:50 pm 
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mmadge wrote:
Give me initials,let me guess M.K. or S.J.?

Not even close. It would not be appropriate for me to reveal who they were.


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