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Got a question for the Matt's and all other gurus
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Author:  nc_native [ Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:06 am ]
Post subject:  Got a question for the Matt's and all other gurus
How do you go about doing this? Skip to about 1:55. My question is at 1:59.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WjnkthmmDI&playnext=1&list=PL518AC88B4C555151

Do they have the rudder not locked down before that course? If so, do you jump overboard and push the rudder to trip the cam between heats? How do they sail upwind? What's your technique? BTW, those guys are amazing.

I'm not a racer but would love to once. I bet it's fun to sail at awkward angles. The reason I'm asking is, I've always glanced at my windward rudder while trapped out. From water level to the point it releases while flying the hull(the z axis rudder length), the the rudder has needless drag, in my opinion. But by the time the rudder comes out, I'm already lifted too far and losing speed. Am I completely wrong?

What does the experts do? If you will, please teach me!
Author:  mmiller [ Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Got a question for the Matt's and all other gurus
No, the rudder is locked down. He reaches aft and raises the tiller arm to unlock and pulls the rudder up. You have to have cams that operate correctly (lubricated and adjusted).

I always reach and go downwind with one rudder up, but never felt comfortable going upwind that way. You have less blade in the water to make course corrections when sailing to weather... can cause issues, so you have to be careful.
Author:  MBounds [ Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Got a question for the Matt's and all other gurus
That's how the rudder system is supposed to work. He "popped" the tiller arm up in the tack, then finished pulling it up once out on the wire.

So many people on this forum struggle with old boats and cranky rudder lock-down mechanisms, that they don't realize that the rudder system works easily and really well when properly adjusted and maintained. They just think "that's the way it is" and swear at it, not knowing that if they spent a little time maintaining the system, life would be sooo much easier.

Rudder cams need to be replaced when they get beat up and they need lubricating (the plunger and lower part of the cam) on a regular basis.

As far as the technique is concerned, it's a very advanced racing technique that the Puerto Ricans perfected some time ago. It's difficult to manage and it takes a lot of practice to sail that way without stalling out. And your rudders need to go up and down really well.
Author:  nc_native [ Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Got a question for the Matt's and all other gurus
Thanks guys! As an avid Hobie forum reader you two have capes on.

Hmmmm. Occam's razor. After reading, I walked out to the boat and click. I'm such a DA.... Yeah.

I've been working on boats (offshore mate/captain) for better than a decade before I bought a Hobie, although I sailed classic moths, lasers, and borrowed Hobies. So when I got one, I wanted to know every thing about them and took it apart before putting it in the water. The first thing I did was rebuild the rudders (new cams, plunger, etc.) and always have marine grease on it. I was thinking I would break the cam. Like you mentioned before, that's the way it is. I guess I would have to make sure the cam plate adjusted correctly.

Thanks for answering, advice, and the background of the technique. I'll try it out on a calm day and carefully get the feel for it.

Oh yeah, Mr. Bounds, I checked out the Hotline from Jan. That picture of the buried Hobies, was that in Va. Beach? Man, that place is a Hobie graveyard. I have a friend that paid next to nothing for a boat with a title, sight unseen, buried in the sand. He packed up a shovel and went there with a trailer. The guy showed him where it was and he commenced to digging. He found, at the time, a three year old complete Hobie 16. After washing the sand away, nothing was wrong with it. Heck, the sand was protecting the tramp from the sun.
Author:  MBounds [ Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Got a question for the Matt's and all other gurus
If you've got the rake adjustable castings, getting the plate right so there's no fore/aft slop in the system is critical. (Fall 2010 HOTLINE has an article about that.)

The other aspect of that technique is that your boat has to be balanced - virtually no weather helm. Since you have limited turning ability, you have to learn to steer with the sails. The technique doesn't really work well in lighter air - only when you're double-trapped going to weather.

Here's a video of the 2008 North American Champions, Faccio and Jolli, and you can see him work it:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpYA8EGzIKw&feature=player_detailpage[/youtube]
Author:  nc_native [ Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Got a question for the Matt's and all other gurus
Perfect! I'll hunt that down and do some reading.
Quote:
Since you have limited turning ability, you have to learn to steer with the sails.


I fooollow. That makes sense. I understand your sail is like an airplane wing. Your saying I have to refine the flow of air across the sail and use it to sail my heading? Watching for stalling, loading the cup of the sail, etc. and using it for advantage?


Quote:
you can see him work it:


Man! It's always awesome to watch people that have it wired. I just wanna be in the chase boat! I'd learn a lot just watching. I've been there on a surf trip, the Aguadilla side. Puerto Ricans are very skilled when it comes to water and great people.

One more thing I'm wondering. When it comes to racing, your crew is great, on the trap(or whenever), do they control the mainsheet or the car along with the jib? Just curious.
Author:  MBounds [ Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Got a question for the Matt's and all other gurus
"Steering with the sails" really isn't that hard to master - to head up, sheet in the main and ease the jib. To bear away, ease the main and sheet in the jib. The skill is in feeling when you need to do it and resist the temptation to steer out of a situation with the rudder that will just stall it.

Here's a photo of Enrique Figueroa (many time North American champion) rounding a leeward mark and heading back upwind:
Image
The technique here is flawless - the rudder's up, Tito (his crew) is already getting on the wire, Quique's hooked and ready to go out - and they haven't even passed the mark yet!

But notice the sails - the jib is almost flapping it's so far out while the main is almost completely sheeted in. Oversheet the main, head up.

As far as having the crew work the main or traveller, it really depends on the skill of the crew and how much they can coordinate with the driver. Once you're both out on the wire, the crew really only holds on to the jib sheet to help keep themselves attached to the boat. They can sheet in, but it's really hard for them to uncleat the jib from the wire to sheet out.

So, most top teams have the crew work the main traveller in puffs. Depends on the strength of the crew, too - on a 16, most crews are women or youths that may not have the upper body strength to manage either the main or the traveller. I'll usually coordinate the crew's traveller moves with the mainsheet - giving the crew an assist when pulling up and controlling the dump.
Author:  nc_native [ Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Got a question for the Matt's and all other gurus
Dude! You're a walking encyclopedia! I'll reference the Blazing Saddles remark from the rudder hum post. Thanks Mr. Lamarr! I'll try it when I get the balance issues right. I can see how it can be squirrely. One of these days, when the money comes, I'm going to get a new rig. After learning set up and sailing an old rig, I'm sure I'll be ahead of the ballgame. Figuratively speaking. You rock!
Author:  Karl Brogger [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Got a question for the Matt's and all other gurus
You can sail pretty well wither no rudder. You can even tack without rudders.
Author:  MBounds [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Got a question for the Matt's and all other gurus
Karl Brogger wrote:
You can sail pretty well wither no rudder. You can even tack without rudders.
I want to see you do that on a 16 or a 14, Karl.
Author:  Karl Brogger [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Got a question for the Matt's and all other gurus
MBounds wrote:
Karl Brogger wrote:
You can sail pretty well wither no rudder. You can even tack without rudders.
I want to see you do that on a 16 or a 14, Karl.


I can do it all day long on a 16, it just have an "F" prefix....

I almost said you might not be able to do it on a H16, but didn't want to come across as an elitist prick. Thanks for outting me Matt.

I'm not sure if I can do it uni on the F16, I've never tried.
Author:  hobieandy [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Got a question for the Matt's and all other gurus
MBounds wrote:
but didn't want to come across as an elitist prick.


Don't worry Karl you don't come across as an elitist at all...
Author:  Sail Revolution [ Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Got a question for the Matt's and all other gurus
Karl Brogger wrote:
MBounds wrote:
Karl Brogger wrote:
You can sail pretty well wither no rudder. You can even tack without rudders.
I want to see you do that on a 16 or a 14, Karl.


I can do it all day long on a 16, it just have an "F" prefix....

I almost said you might not be able to do it on a H16, but didn't want to come across as an elitist prick. Thanks for outting me Matt.

I'm not sure if I can do it uni on the F16, I've never tried.


Elitist? Naw, man. When there are more than, like 8, :D F16s in the US, we might start thinking that.

Nice pic of the master BTW.
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