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 Post subject: Downwind on a 14
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:01 pm 
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Does anyone have good tips for downwind. I don't seem to feel right when sailing straight downwind and I seem slow. Maybe because I've crewed on a 20 for so long and am not used to straight downwind. Anyone have any tips?


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 Post subject: Re: Downwind on a 14
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:10 pm 
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Location: Vancouver, WA
14sailorjosh wrote:
Anyone have any tips?

Tip: Don't sail straight downwind. :) I'm sure someone will have some better tips but having only been on a 14 once, that's all I have.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:35 pm 
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if Bob said it, it must be true!
http://www.hobiecat.com/support/tech/h14tuning.html

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:22 pm 
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Location: Detroit, MI
In the absence of waves, there is no advantage to tacking downwind in the 14.

I know it's wierd - it took me a while to get used to it after tacking downwind in a 16 and a 17 for so many years.

Just point it straight downwind and go. If the wind is light enough, stand on the front crossbar - you get your weight forward and you act as extra sail area.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:13 pm 
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Location: Decatur, Alabama
The question of whether to go straight downwind or tack downwind can be quantified if you have a gps, a bridal vane, and a hand held wind meter, and I have all 3. This can be put to rest very easily.

If you are on the water and want to know the wind speed, point your boat directly downwind according to your vane and check the wind meter. If it says 5 mph and the gps says 5 mph, adding them together gives the actual wind speed of 10 mph.

If you want to head off 45 degrees downwind, it will only pay in reduced time if your boat speed is greater than 7.1 mph. The longer distance is a product of the square root of 2, which is 1.414. Multiply 5 mph x 1.414 and you get 7.1 mph. Some cats will sail faster than this speed and some will not, but under these conditions, 7.1 mph is the magic number.

A Hobie 20 will absolutely beat that number. See page #7 here : http://static.hobiecat.com/2010_archive/support/pdfs/HobieU.pdf

My Wave is going to be a close call, and I an very interested in performing this experiment in a variety of wind speeds in order to see if any conditions are favorable. Whether the Wave will benefit is unknown to me at this time. I am hopeful that the addition of the jib and the traveler will make enough difference to merit their cost and make downwind tacks worthwhile, but I am betting it will be a close call.

I much prefer to actually do the experiment myself than to take the word of someone else regarding the outcome. Of course, you guys WILL take my word when I post the numbers later this year, won't you? :>)

Fascinating stuff.......

Loren


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:23 pm 
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Location: West Maui
Loren wrote:
My Wave is going to be a close call, and I an very interested in performing this experiment in a variety of wind speeds in order to see if any conditions are favorable. Whether the Wave will benefit is unknown to me at this time. I am hopeful that the addition of the jib and the traveler will make enough difference to merit their cost and make downwind tacks worthwhile, but I am betting it will be a close call.

Ask Rick White on catsailor.com.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:13 am 
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Well, here's some empirical evidence:
Image

This photo (by Slim Johnson) was taken from the weather mark, looking almost dead downwind at the leaders of the 2nd race on day 1 of the 2006 H-14 North Americans (Clear Lake, IA).

As you can see, they are all headed nearly dead downwind. Wrinkley is even standing up, which the rest of us thought was kind of dangerous, given the gusty wind conditions. (This was the race that Bob Curry pitchpoled going downwind. Notice that he's caught up - a lot.)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:40 am 
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Location: Clear Lake Iowa
WHY did you have to show THAT picture?? That is the one where I was upside down for a while after pitching!

Someone told me, and I think it was Curry at MWE on '04, to keep your ear as close to the mast as you can when you're heading down wind. That would imply getting your weight up to the crossbar, and everyone that is sucessful on the 14, goes straight downwind in 90% of all wind conditions. It is REALLY exciting in huge wind. Come to think of it, its really exciting in light wind too.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:40 am 
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Location: Decatur, Alabama
I am not sure I want to attempt this little experiment in winds of 23 mph. The conditions I have in mind for this are more in the range of 4-12 mph. At those wind speeds a course other than straight away might prove to be more profitable.

Using "reductio ad absurdum" what course would you expect to be the fastest in a 90 mph wind?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Warmly and dryly,

Loren :>)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:06 am 
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Location: Clear Lake Iowa
You know, the best way to learn is to sail with others that know what they are doing. As it turns out, just west of Kansas City is a regatta at the end of April, and at this moment, there are nearly 20 Hobie 14s signed up to race. We can all experiment together!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:52 pm 
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Nice Pic Matt.
If you don't know what empirical means.
Matt is a multpile Hobie 17 National Champion
Billy is a multiple Hobie 14 National Champion
Bob is a Hobie 14 World Champion and has won many many National Championships on different boats.
So, do what they do and go dead down wind.

I have won multiple parties at National Championships.

CW, whats with all the 14's? Are you going to shame Matt into going?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:14 pm 
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Look at the list. My name's on it already.

850 miles. Each way. For a 2 day event.

I think I can do it in 12 hrs if I stay away from Chicago.

I must be totally insane.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:14 pm 
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Location: Decatur, Alabama
Catamaran Sailing From Start To Finish, Phil Berman

"Today, the key to sailing fast downwind is to head up from a run to where the most speed in relation to distance is. Simply put, a cat that tacks downwind in a series of zig-zags will reach its destination sooner than a cat that runs directly before the wind." Page 115.

"Reaching downwind in a series of tacks is something most catamarans do with no problem. However, una-rigged cats with less than 130 square feet of sail area cannot sail effectively by tacking downwind with the wind at 90 degrees. Small una-rigs just cannot generate enough speed with the wind at 90 degrees to justify the extra distance sailed." Page 120


OK, what is the size of the main on a Hobie 14?

Loren


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:26 pm 
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Pat wrote : If you don't know what empirical means. etc.

Hi Pat,

I have measured the orbits of about 4,000+ asteroids. Empirical data and I go way back.......... :>)


Loren


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:29 am 
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Location: Detroit, MI
According to the HCE website, the 14's main is 10.46 m2 = 112.6 ft2


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