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 Post subject: The questions begin :-)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:06 am 
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Location: Bellingham, Washington
First I would like to say thanks to you kind folks who share your experience with the likes of me.

How much inboard/outboard play is normal in the centerboards? While I can't drop them the last inch or so on the trailer, I have significant movement. If this is unusual, what would be the fix?

What are the line size and length for the spin sheet? I did a search but couldn't come up with numbers. A sheet came with the boat but it seems pretty heavy.

The spin pole that came with the boat did not have the tack to halyard block system, I rather like the idea and want to add them. What size blocks should I purchase? I will need 4 one at each end and a dual in the middle.

Attach the front of the pole with line or bungee?

Thanks for these starter questions, I'm sure there will be more to come!

-Todd


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:38 pm 
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ToddE wrote:
First I would like to say thanks to you kind folks who share your experience with the likes of me.

How much inboard/outboard play is normal in the centerboards? While I can't drop them the last inch or so on the trailer, I have significant movement. If this is unusual, what would be the fix? Sorry, I don't know the answer to this. Possibly the hole that the pivot pin is in has wallowed out, and needs to be refilled.

What are the line size and length for the spin sheet? I did a search but couldn't come up with numbers. A sheet came with the boat but it seems pretty heavy. We used 3/8 Marstron in the Prosail races, and that's what most people used back then. Since then, there have been many different lines. The important parts are easy to hold, light weight, and doesn't absorb water. We're still using the same Marstron line we used back then, but the boat doesn't sit out.

Length depends on how you have the blocks setup. Pete Melvin had a really strong crew, and they only had the ratchet at the back, top, outter corner of the wing, and the sheet just ran across the tramp. I had my small wife sailing with me, so we have two ratchets on each side for the big sail. One turning under the back outter corner to another one underneath the wing about halfway forward. This setup requires a longer line than Pete's system. I can measure mine if you like, but it might be better to measure your boat, and buy 5 or 6 feet more than you think you need, and adjust accordingly. It's not unusual on unique setups to plan to have some line to cut.

The spin pole that came with the boat did not have the tack to halyard block system, I rather like the idea and want to add them. What size blocks should I purchase? I will need 4 one at each end and a dual in the middle.

I'm not sure that this type of system is a good idea for a long footed kite. It's a lot different than the high clew, high aspect ratio kites like F18s, and most other boats use these days. If you are using an old school, like we used to, the foot goes all the way from the front of the pole all the way back to the back corner of the wing, and even then, I don't think you could pull it flat. Takedown involved crew going to leeward, after throwing the halyard overboard behind the boat, an handing the halyard to skipper, with tackline in hand, grabbing the chute along the middle at the foot, releasing the tackline, and gathering the sail in behind the main while the skipper eased the chute. It takes longer to type it out than do it.

One takedown line would be good, but for a 550 sq. ft. sail, there are too many possibilities for tangles.

Attach the front of the pole with line or bungee? Line. It needs to hold the tack down. bungee is okay to hang it under the furler.

Thanks for these starter questions, I'm sure there will be more to come!

-Todd


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:26 pm 
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Location: Bellingham, Washington
Thanks so much for the reply Tom. Having a pro-series sailer answer my questions is fantastic!

If you have the chance would you give your boards a push pull inboard and outboard and let me know how much play you have?
Is there a quick primer on how to remove the boards to have a look?

I like the idea of a second set of blocks for the spin sheet, I'm sure my wife would much rather have better purchase. To what do you mount the second set? To the jib track? I'm not at the boat and I'm having trouble picturing how to route around the wing.
My current sheet is 3/8" so I will stick with that and see how it works.

I'm not sure I understand your concern about the "halyard to tack" blocks on the pole. Are you saying that you want to keep the tack in place while you drop the sail and then release it after you have the rest of the sail in the bag? That's not how I read your post, but it is the only concern I can see. I can see the process you describe and I (think) I understand all of it except tossing the halyard off the back (no tangles for the skipper who only has one hand?). Why would the spin pole blocks make the process more difficult? Wouldn't the skipper control the decent of the head in either case? Believe me, I'm not arguing the point, I just want to be sure I have a firm grasp of your concern.

Where does your Spinnaker halyard route at the bottom of the mast? I don't have a block at the bottom. It seems like there should be one to turn the halyard back toward the tramp. I would expect this to be on the spin pole, but not on mine.
Where\how do you secure the halyard?

I can picture the difficulty of a takedown line without a snuffer, or perhaps even with one, on a spin that big!
If the boat proves to be as much fun as I expect, I will order a new chute from Chip at Whirlwind. I expect that he would build a newer style spinnaker. I'm currently discussing a sail package with him.

I have an aluminum spin pole that is just shy of 11', is it worth it to build a new one at 12' or more?

Is there any way that I can cajole you into posting or allowing me to post pictures of your trailer? I would love to see it, and I'm sure it would help others as well. I will send you a postage paid envelope with a memory card, or you can email them, or mail them and I will scan them and return them, or whatever is the easiest method for you.

I can step the mast with two people, but I would rather have a bulletproof system that would make it easy like my H16's.

Thank you again for taking the time to answer all my questions!

-Todd


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:18 pm 
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ToddE wrote:
Thanks so much for the reply Tom. Having a pro-series sailer answer my questions is fantastic!

If you have the chance would you give your boards a push pull inboard and outboard and let me know how much play you have? I'll check when I go over there.
Is there a quick primer on how to remove the boards to have a look? There is a metal rod they pivot on held to the boat with a couple of screws. Look under the bottom of the boat, and you will see it. There's a spring up above the board that pushes it down. The only thing else is the line you pull it up with holding it in.[

I like the idea of a second set of blocks for the spin sheet, I'm sure my wife would much rather have better purchase. To what do you mount the second set? To the jib track? I'm not at the boat and I'm having trouble picturing how to route around the wing. Our second ratchet is under the wing a little behind the fore and aft location of the jib sheet block. We had remote control lines to turn the back ratchet on and off to jibe or takedown under the windward wing. The front ones only take a 90 degree turn of line, and almost always stay on.
My current sheet is 3/8" so I will stick with that and see how it works.

I'm not sure I understand your concern about the "halyard to tack" blocks on the pole. Are you saying that you want to keep the tack in place while you drop the sail and then release it after you have the rest of the sail in the bag? Tack is released first by crew with hand on sail. Skipper eases halyard if there is not enough drag from it dragging in the water behind the boat. That's not how I read your post, but it is the only concern I can see. I can see the process you describe and I (think) I understand all of it except tossing the halyard off the back (no tangles for the skipper who only has one hand?)Exactly.. Why would the spin pole blocks make the process more difficult? Only block on the pole is for the tack line.[color=#FF4080][/color] Wouldn't the skipper control the decent of the head in either case? Yes[color=#FF4080][color=#FF4080][/color][/color] Believe me, I'm not arguing the point, I just want to be sure I have a firm grasp of your concern.

Where does your Spinnaker halyard route at the bottom of the mast? We have a swivel block with camcleat near the bottom of the mast for the halyard.[color=#FF4080][/color]I don't have a block at the bottom. It seems like there should be one to turn the halyard back toward the tramp. I would expect this to be on the spin pole, but not on mine.
Where\how do you secure the halyard? It just stays on the sail in the bags on the tramp. We have a bag on each side. Mesh on the back to let water through. The fronts have a half circle hoop with plactic rod in that is held under a shockcord. Launching pulls the bag open. To store at takedown, crew gathers sail under knees on top of the bag, and slams the hoop over it to close.

I can picture the difficulty of a takedown line without a snufferIt's really not that bad. It stays out of the wind behind the sail as it's coming down, or perhaps even with oneNothing worse than absolutely not being able to get it down at all, as happened to everyone who tried a snufer with the original chutes at some point, on a spin that big!snuffers do not work with a 550 sq. ft. spinnaker with a long foot. It was tried many different kinds of ways. It didn't even work with the small original chutes.
If the boat proves to be as much fun as I expect, I will order a new chute from Chip at Whirlwind. I expect that he would build a newer style spinnaker. I'm currently discussing a sail package with him.

I have an aluminum spin pole that is just shy of 11', is it worth it to build a new one at 12' or more?I don't remember the length of the pole, but after Prosail the boats were sailed for a few more years, and everyone went to a pole about a foot longer than stock. I can measure if you like. My pole is an old broken carbon fiber sailboard mast.

Is there any way that I can cajole you into posting or allowing me to post pictures of your trailer? I would love to see it, and I'm sure it would help others as well. I will send you a postage paid envelope with a memory card, or you can email them, or mail them and I will scan them and return them, or whatever is the easiest method for you.I'll be glad to email you the pictures. I took some, and sent them to someone else, but I'm too lazy to jump through all the hoops that these forums require to post a picture. I'm spoiled by other forums I belong to that even have automatic resizing for photos that are easily attached. You would be welcome to post them here or anywhere else they might do anyone some good.

I can step the mast with two people, but I would rather have a bulletproof system that would make it easy like my H16's.With my trailer, I can do it with an 8 year old child, and there is even no need to retension the rig once the mast is up. I could easily rig it up myself, but rather than tie lines to keep it from flopping side to side, I just hold it as it's winched up to keep it from jerking on a shroud. tomandpamking at gmail.com

Thank you again for taking the time to answer all my questions!No problem at all.

One other thing. Skipper holds halyard (teeth sometimes) and spinnaker sheet just before takedown, while sailing the boat with mainsheet and tiller in separate hands. Kite sheet is released the instant crew releases tackline with hand on sail, and as soon as possible after that, crew releases halyard from cleat. It's especially a lot of fun with skipper out on wire and 19 other 21s all around you sailed by good sailors trying to pass somebody, with no penalty for contact, passing boat had right-of-way, racing for prize money.

-Todd


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:35 pm 
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Location: Bellingham, Washington
Here are the pictures that Tom sent along to give me an idea of how his trailer works. Thanks so much!

From Tom:
Here are some pictures. They were taken without taking the cover off of the boat, so not exactly presentation quality, but may show you how it works. I built it in 1988, and it's hot dipped galvanized. It has twin axles. The vertical square tubing with open top is for the second layer rack to mount. Two boats were pulled all over the country on it for the Prosail series.

This first picture shows the A-frame angled up from it's mounting pivot points in front of the trailer front crossbar.
Image

This picture is looking down from above the pivot point attachment for the A-frame.
Image

Another overall view of the legs of the A-frame.
Image


This shows the pointy end of the A-frame. It just rests against the mast/winch stand while traveling.
The boat hasn't been used in years, and parts have been taken off here for other use.
To use the A-frame: roll the mast back (rear stand has a boat trailer bow-roller on the top) and attach it to the mast base ball. Attach a couple of trapeze wires to a snap hook attached to the pointy end of the A-frame. A line stays there (normally) that's the right length, and also serves as the winch line. Helper winches mast up with a little tension, I keep it from swinging side to side as it goes up, and get off to attach the forestay to the furler. Ease tension off winch, hook up trap wires, and the mast is stepped. Jib stays furled around forestay, so you are almost ready to raise the main once the boat is off the trailer and go sailing.
Image


Cross bars on trailer are telescopic. Pads and rollers pivot. The rear support is two 12" rollers on a pivot to give the hulls good support as the boat rolls on and off the trailer.
Front supports are wide pads (18" front to back) covered with carpet. The pads are wide enough side to side that the boat can be telescoped while sliding on these flat pads and wide rollers at the back.
Each end of a crossbar is individual, so it can telescope in for legal trailering width, and out to assemble boat.
We haven't used the boat in years, but it's under a shed on our farm on Lake Gaston where we live, so it's just kept expanded all the time.
Image
Image

It has two mounting positions. Vertical to support the mast. and a place to store it horizontally so the boat can be slid off the trailer once the mast is up.
There is a large boat trailer "bow roller" on the top to ease sliding it back to step, and forward to put it on the front support.
We have two front supports. One for when a single boat is on the trailer, and a double one for when we carried two.
These are all the pictures I have right now. Whenever I ever get this boat out again, I'll take some of the rigging process.

Regards,
Tom


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:23 pm 
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Location: Bellingham, Washington
Thanks again for the pictures Tom!
So in thinking about sailing with the Spinnaker, it seems to me that without a snuffer, you have to launch from the side you last retrieved the spinnaker. There is no way to get the spinnaker halyard around the forestay that I can see (in my mind).
If you did a windward set will it blow past the jib to the lee side or are you just asking for trouble with a chute this large?

-Todd


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