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 Post subject: Rudder Tamer for the AI
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:49 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:04 pm
Posts: 615
Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Ever hankered to lock the rudder into a position that will hold a course without your hand on the rudder handle?

Welcome to the crowd.

I finally found something on a yak at:

http://watertribe.com/Magazine/Y2006/M0 ... udder.aspx

About half way through if you click on the video. Also found a whole bunch of stuff on the net searching under rudder tamer terms including variations like rudder lock. Once you see the principal how do you apply it to the AI

All you garage tinker bells put on your Earl Gardner copy of Imagination. Here we go!

Image

The black object is the rudder handle..

The bolt is the rudder steering blade residing underneath the handle.

The two spectra cables stretching left from the tips of the blade to the rudder are identical to what's there now.

The doubled up spectra stretching to the right represents a front loop from one side of the steering blade to the other. If the blade is twisted by the handle from left to right or vice versa the loop travels around the circular object, our "rudder tamer". When the rudder is in the right position the tamer locks down by some mechanism (simple screw?). The Tribe video shows the same thing, but I believe the loop originates from the front foot pedal steering mechanism.

To add this to your AI you simply need to connect one end of the loop to a blade wing. Having drilled a couple of holes inches "X"in front of the handle run the bitter end of the loop through one hole and around the tamer.

Then back through the other hole and connect to the opposite blade wing.

Realize the tamer might even just be a cleat around which you take a wrap.

The reason I'm posting this here is there are a lot better gizmo designers on here, like Roadrunner, Kayaking Bob, stringey, etc (no offense if I forgot to mention anyone) than I am.

I can visualize tubing being used with a grommet like so water doesn't enter the hull. My slide button on mychin strap of my farmers straw hat (I grow coffee) could be mounted to pinch the line and stop it from shifting. But I would have to press it with my one hand to release the loop, and adjust the rudder with the other hand if I used it. Ergo need to design something that's quickly released.

OK inventors the race with the Hobie engineers is officially on! Go you users! :D :D :D :D :D :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:31 am 
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
G'Day AlohaDan,
Thanks- I feel honoured that you have included me in such esteemed company! :o
Is there a reason you have suggested a complex line arrangement rather than looking at a simpler system that may just lock the rudder handle in place? I am thinking of some type of track arrangement that follows the arc of the rudder handle and allows it to be locked anywhere along that arc.
My experience with the twist-n-stow rudder ( and that has only been on my modified tandem) is that once the steering lines are properly tensioned the system is 'closed' so to speak. Turn the handle the rudder turns, turn the rudder the handle turns,- so you should be able to lock any part of that system to hold a course. My first thoughts are that the locking of the handle would be the most logical and simple place to start.
Or is there something I am missing especially in regards to the AI? Does the rudder at speed move independently of the handle for example??


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:03 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2157
Location: Maui, Hawaii
Dan,
I use to feel as you do about needing to "lock" the rudder control. But since the new sailing rudder (with the forward notch) I can take my hands off the rudder 5-15 sec. almost any time (except during turns) with little to no deviation in course.

I AM interested in considering foot steering as long as it wouldn't complicate the rest of the boats systems.

Thanks for the "vote" as a tinkerer. They are almost as much fun to rig and tweak as they are to sail!

Now if I only could fish as good as you...

Kayaking Bob


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:15 pm 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Bob

Don't think 5-15 seconds is enough for fishing.

email to the Chief (Steve Issac) at the Watertribe, reveals he thinks the tamer will work.

Picture at:

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/st ... assNum=366

Only question is will I have to have a thicker cordage than spectra for the thing to work.

Any Hobie engineers looking at this, I suggest making one with the rotating drum and clamp inside the hull, with only the screw down tension knob outside.

I'm going to order one and play with it. Probably won't be until March due to impending house exchange.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:11 pm 
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Location: Maui, Hawaii
If you can control the rudder without breaking with the handle then I don't think you should worry about breaking the Spectra line with a 'tamer'.

I'll be interested with your results.

I still would like to see more info. on that foot pedal steering posted last week.

I was going to reply to your post on your long peddle, but I was recovering from a wild ride that same day over here in Maui, and just couldn't generate enough false sympathy. :P

Keep up the good work!

Kayaking Bob


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:10 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
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Location: Escondido
Sorry Dan for not participating so far, but I have not been able to open the video to see this thing. Looking at your above link and re-reading your description, this looks like an adjustable rudder lock. Is that right? Or is this gizmo actually able to hold an established course? Sorry to be so dense! :oops:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:46 pm 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
RR

Adjustable rudder lock seems more descriptive. Once you have the rudder in position you lock it there.

Believe you can understand if you visualize the handle to rotate the bell to a certain position. The "loop" slides around the circular front cylinder. Then the screw down device pins the loop in position. The bell can't rotate, so the ruder lines are positioned where they were when you screwed down the locking clamp. Look at the pic of the device on West Marine.

Normally they put this thing right on the tiller. The loop running to cleats on the slide. Chief just runs it off his foot pedals.

In the video he states he has traveled sometimes as much as 60 miles without adjusting course. (Guess his wind was pretty constant .)

Bob

I know the spectra has enough strength. Just worried if it has enough thickness so the clamp is effective. I'll test on the garage bench before installing.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:31 am 
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Location: Escondido
Well Dan, this is your lucky day. You can put that money back in your wallet!

I run a painter (bow line) right next to the tiller. As it turns out, that darned thing is always flopping around, working its way under the rudder handle. It's a tight fit, creating a lot of friction and making the handle hard to turn. There's your solution for the price of a little 550 cord. Here's what it looks like when it's misbehaving:
Image

It's deceptively simple. As stringy says, the only requirement is to make sure your rudder lines are tight so there is no slack in the rudder. Nothing will go anywhere without you moving it, yet you can over power it instantly if the need arises.

Unfortunately, even with a locked-in rudder, on a rolling sea or shifting wind, I can't see any way your AI sill stay on course for 1/4 mile much less 60. Chief must be using a different hull/keel/rudder system to get that kind of stability! Additionally, with the Adventure, any change in heel requires a rudder adjustment. I can, as Bob does, take my hands off the rudder for a short time. This is nice when hanging off the starboard side sailing the Adventure with the rudder out of reach. But it needs to be tweaked occasionally.

If you want to hold course relative to the wind, you need to look into an autopilot -- essentially a wind vane mounted to your rudder. But that's another matter. 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:36 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:48 pm
Posts: 129
Location: Virginia Beach, Va.
Dan my rudder stays put because of the screw in the pin and bungee cord I use to help lock my rudder down. It works fine on smooth water but I still have to work the tiller on every wave slap to stay on course or in the sweet spot when riding them.
gwiz


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:20 am 
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Location: Los Angeles
Dan,
How about this piece of high tech wizardry?

Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:14 pm 
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Location: North Shore Oahu Hawaii
I like idavis. keep it simple dan. its not that hard to lock handle in place.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:49 pm 
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Location: Virginia Beach, Va.
One thing you have to watch with putting upward pressure on handle is that its set screw doesn't go through the crank arm. It is easy to break loose the brass insert in the plastic handle. I added a short piece of pvc to mine and had to drill the hole through the crank to keep the handle from falling off.
gwiz


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:34 am 
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Location: Los Angeles
boogie-d,
Thanks. I guess I should have put a smiley after that. Rereading it looks a little condescending, and I meant it to be funny. You got it, but I hope most don't think I was trying to be a smarta**.

gwiz,
I am actually surprised at that. In one of those "why did you do that" moments last week, I removed the set screw from the rudder up/down lever on my Outback, and to my shock, it was run through a hole in the crank arm. To even more shock, the crank arm is under tension, and pulled back almost recessing itself into the kayak. My arms were barely long enough, to push on the backside of the crank arm, and my wife was none to happy with me and my language as she was trying to help me run the set screw back through the crank arm. I have a bruise on my right arm from reaching into the middle hatch, and trying to put on the crank arm. I finally got it in, and was exhausted. All that because I thought I could adjust the level from the set screw.

I am glad that you have pointed this out and will not be messing with the set screw on the rudder left/right side. I do realize now that adjustments should be made from the rudder, and mine is working perfectly after a little adjustment was made.

On the pressure issue, I wouldn't think you would want to jam the doorstopper under the lever, just place it there to give it a little friction. My rudder is fairly tight, and I don't even have to lock the handle in any way in order for it to stay exactly where I left it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:53 pm 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
I ordered before seeing RR's post !

I received the tamer. I will have to use the cord provided as spectra is too narrow for the pinch clamp to work.

That will not be a big deal as I'll attach spectra to either end of their cord for attaching to the handle bell fixture wings.

Probably mount it just fwd of the net pocket on the flat space there.

Prior to doing so I'll test by attaching spectra to the bell and leading it fwd to wear I can test the pivot through the front hatch. Hope that's clear.

Probably won't get the thing rigged until first week of March as am going on the road to NZ on a house exchange.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:40 pm 
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Here's how I installed it.

Make sure steering lines are tight.

First set the rudder to neutral. Mark one steering line right where it exists. Then move rudder full extension to the opposite side. The cable will move outward and that's what you want to measure.

Image

Realize the cable dot representing neutral moves twice this distance from one extreme to the other.

The tamer will not work with spectra. It requires a thick line for the clamp to work. So on side of the tamer you will need at least the distance the
dot moved, plus something to attach spectra to. (use the old stuff salvaged from the rudder up down kit)The latter is what I used to mount to the rudder bell fixture pictured here. It's a good idea before starting to reach inside and feel around for the posts, the lines leading aft, etc to familarize yourself on how the concept works. This photo requires "click" to blow up.

Image

Figure where you want the tamer. Most likely fwd of the side netting ahead of the steering handle. I went fwd past the flat spot there due to upside down storage configuration problems.

Drill two small holes spaced the width of the tamer, just large enough for the smallest grommet you can buy from Ace. Before forcing the grommets into the holes thread the spectra through them, pushing the long end into the hull, and pulling it out through the center hatch. I then made a large knot on the opposite end and by pulling on the long end of the spectra used the knot to help me push the grommet into the hole with a finger nail file.

Thread the tamer with it's cord. Now attach one piece of spectra to the nylon tamer cord

Image

Now position the tamer. I used 5". Mark where the butt end is. DO NOT FASTEN DOWN!!!

Image

Trim off the excess spectra next to the nylon tamer; trim it also and burn slightly to prevent unraveling.

Having partner or duct tape, hold the port line reach inside and find the port post.

Make sure the port spectra line is not twisted inside around anything.

Here's the tricky part.

Pull the line tight so you can feel the post, with your fingers, the spectra between your fingers. Withdraw your hand, mark the spectra, and tie a slip not so it will end up being closed on the mark. Practice on a pencil first.

I didn't have the right size crimps to make a post loop, but that might be a better alternative.

Slip the knot over the post. Holding the tamer test moving the rudder handle and make sure your length of the joined nylon/spectra is the proper length.

Make a rough cut on the nylon tamer cord so it's the approximate length for the stbd connection.. Mark where the spectra should be attached. Do it. Trim everything up as you did with the port line.

Repeat for the stbd spectra line inside the hull..

Image

Getting the pices of spectra line the right length is difficult. But now just push the tamer fwd to remove any slack. You can see I didn't have it quite right, but it works. Marke the screw holes for the tamer,drill out with a smaller bit, and screw them down.

Image


The grommet are not the best solution. They are not WT. Plus the spectra will cut the hell out of them. But sufficient to test until someone posts a better solution, or I find one.

When will I test? After March 4th. Doing a house exchange for the next month.

But the wait will be good for you guys. Maybe one will also do this test. What do you have to lose except $25 and the possibility of having to fill in four holes with goop?.

Finally I note even just increasing the friction a bit may help avoid over steering as you can (on dry land anyway) tweak your rudder handle.

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