Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:06 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Pirate's Pullpin
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:25 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:39 am
Posts: 863
Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
Whilst Hobie are reviewing the rudder pin problems including the difficulty in extracting the pin for checking or replacement, I decided in the interim to devise a simple but effective pin extractor, which I call a 'Pirate Pulpin".
Image
The lip on the top of a hobie rudder pin is ground off, a brass or s/steel eye screwed into top with plastic tie used as finger pull.
I took the lip completely off two pins I have as the 'D' top still tends to pick up the rudder lines making extraction difficult and leading to possible line damge. The steel eye is the type used to screw into the back of picture frames and comes in brass or s/steel. and I found the eye width just wider than the pin which itself stops the pin from dropping any further into the gudgeon hole so eliminating the need for the 'D' top altogether.
The set-up clears all the hardware and the pin pops in and out now easily and without drama.
I drilled the hole using the device provided with printer re-inking kits but a small drill would work well. I got two prepared, one at the action end, and one in reserve. Here is another view of this simple set-up.
Image
I will be tackling the other problem of pin failure next...Pirate :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:07 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 5:17 pm
Posts: 203
Location: Ettalong Beach, Central Coast, Australia
I am not sure if you have actually had a pin break? Because it gets very bent, and I would be quite concerned that if that pin were to actually break, the metal eye would be pulled down into the rudder assembly. They seem to shear at the bottom, and the whole rudder assembly then pivots up, bending the pin. Without a head, either that eye will stay at the top, and separate from the pin, or it might be forced down into the assembly. Why did you cut off the head? It seems that idea would work fine leaving the head on.

Geoff.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:44 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:39 am
Posts: 863
Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
Geoff wrote:
I am not sure if you have actually had a pin break? Because it gets very bent, and I would be quite concerned that if that pin were to actually break, the metal eye would be pulled down into the rudder assembly. They seem to shear at the bottom, and the whole rudder assembly then pivots up, bending the pin. Without a head, either that eye will stay at the top, and separate from the pin, or it might be forced down into the assembly. Why did you cut off the head? It seems that idea would work fine leaving the head on.

Geoff.

You are quite right that I have not had a pin break Geoff, and with any luck there will be a Hobie fix coming and i won't ever get to have the 'pleasure'.
I am extremely confident that the eye will not be swallowed into the rudder box hole in the event of a failure should the pin be dragged downward. It is more likely that the thread of the eye would simply pull out of pin the but it would be of little drama if it actually were to. The thinking behind removing the 'D' lip is that it is a pain to get lined up and past the rudder lines and even more difficult out on the water. Also a couple of removals of the pin leads to the lip being destroyed anyway which may cause a failure in itself if it allows the pin top to slip past and into the top and out the bottom of the top rudder box hole. The last reason I took off the lip is to ensure the eye was well clear of the lines so as not to snag them when the pin spins during rudder action....Pirate


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:17 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 5:17 pm
Posts: 203
Location: Ettalong Beach, Central Coast, Australia
Well the more I think about this, the more I think its a really bad idea. Chances are you will have a pin drop out now. This is a Pirate Grenade, not the pullpin, IMHO. And if it doesn't fall out, but fails, then Hobie are absolutely entitled to tell you its not their problem. Probably they would be more polite than I am, but I think I am listening to the Pirate, and adopting his approach to communications?

Incidentally, I have been reflecting carefully on my sailing style, and wondering if anything I am doing could be contributing. And I have come up with an idea. I am getting lazy, sailing the AI, doing things you could not get away with on a cat. When I turn, these days I always gibe, and I don't bother to release the tension on the sail. Sometimes the boat tries quite hard to stay on course, and not turn, which itself would be some stress on the rudder, but my point is when I do turn, which is really quite fast, I suspect I am pivoting and have the sail fully cleated in. I wonder if anyone else is doing that? It could add a lot of sideways torque to the rudder especially when the sail snaps back onto the return tack. I am also predominantly sailing across the swells and wave fronts.

Geoff.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:04 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:39 am
Posts: 863
Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
Geoff wrote:
Well the more I think about this, the more I think its a really bad idea. Chances are you will have a pin drop out now. This is a Pirate Grenade, not the pullpin, IMHO. And if it doesn't fall out, but fails, then Hobie are absolutely entitled to tell you its not their problem. Probably they would be more polite than I am, but I think I am listening to the Pirate, and adopting his approach to communications?
Geoff.

No chance of the pin dropping out Geoff. It is captive both top and bottom and no chance of damaging the boat whatsoever....Pirate


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:15 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:39 am
Posts: 863
Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
Geoff wrote:
Incidentally, I have been reflecting carefully on my sailing style, and wondering if anything I am doing could be contributing. And I have come up with an idea. I am getting lazy, sailing the AI, doing things you could not get away with on a cat. When I turn, these days I always gibe, and I don't bother to release the tension on the sail. Sometimes the boat tries quite hard to stay on course, and not turn, which itself would be some stress on the rudder, but my point is when I do turn, which is really quite fast, I suspect I am pivoting and have the sail fully cleated in. I wonder if anyone else is doing that? It could add a lot of sideways torque to the rudder especially when the sail snaps back onto the return tack. I am also predominantly sailing across the swells and wave fronts.
Geoff.

If your rudder pin fails because of a series of hard gibing then it is a dud of a system. IMHO again I say the pin failures are caused in manufacture of the various parts and easily overcome with a small bit of basic engineering...Pirate


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:53 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:32 am
Posts: 1764
Location: Calga NSW, Australia
Geoff wrote:
When I turn, these days I always gibe, and I don't bother to release the tension on the sail. Sometimes the boat tries quite hard to stay on course, and not turn, which itself would be some stress on the rudder, but my point is when I do turn, which is really quite fast, I suspect I am pivoting and have the sail fully cleated in. I wonder if anyone else is doing that? It could add a lot of sideways torque to the rudder especially when the sail snaps back onto the return tack. I am also predominantly sailing across the swells and wave fronts.

Geoff.


Geoff, I'm new to sailing, but I thought you were supposed to tighten the sail during a gibe, to stop it snapping across and possibly damaging it. Have I got that wrong???

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:07 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:39 am
Posts: 863
Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
Chris, I have sailed since I was a kid and the rule of thumb is to undertake the gybe whilst the boat is travelling at its fastest, ie on a wave, and the wind is momentarily at its lowest. Of course if the boat is travelling fast then there is less force on the sail anyway. Sheeting it in does lessen the amount of sail exposed to the wind before and after the gybe so is considered a good idea, but in our boomless rigs it does not make much difference as the boats are light and the forces in the sail are instantly transferred into speed....Pirate


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:58 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:57 am
Posts: 222
Location: Phuket, Thailand
Hi Pirate

Back to original thread..

Looking at pins....the brass pin I have had for a year is tight in the gudgeon ring, the rudder housing rotates around it, there seems to be no wear on the housing...everything is still tight. Pirate, you are right, there appears to be quite a lot of slack between the plastic pin and ring on my new hull and the pin rotates within it and I feel, maybe, that in the case of those that have broken pins this is a possible contributary factor. I am just waiting on a new mast reciever so am still laid up. I am going to take my life/warranty into my own hands and swap the stock pin for my brass one before I start sailing It worked SO WELL on the old hull, but then looks as if the ring column going thru the transom was well covered in plastic inside the old hull. I believe 2 of the hawaiian crew bust transoms using the prototype nylon pins, maybe it would be interesting to look inside and see how deeply inbedded those columns were were in the plastic

Anyway plenty of great tips on how to make and mend on this particular issue. I think you have made your case and it sounds from Matt as if Hobie have 'heard you'It also sounds (take note any of you new to this forum and considering purchasing one of these amazing craft) as if the VAST majority of users are NOT (for whatever reasons) experiencing pin problems. For those of us that HAVE our fixes seem to be working.

I understand that you need a sheer point in the rudder assembly, is there any othere place you could put it? What you want is weak point that fails before anything else if you overload it/strike something yet is not prone to failure under normal sailing conditions thats in a location more accessable than the pin.......OOOh tricky time for a Darwin Stubby!!!! Maybe Hobie should supply a Pirate/philip1el collar that emitts a short but painful shock to anyone sailing in stronger winds without reefing, or with their daggerboards not down fully when close hauled, you could plug it into your fishfinder battery anyone failing to do so contravenes the terms of warranty. Maybe we could wear them while posting to this forum too for every time the word 'rudder pin' is used an extra 10 volt incremental increase delivered :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:16 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:39 am
Posts: 863
Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
Right on Phil and I hear you. My last word on the subject is that I think I have exacted at least a partial fix by shimming up the gap left between the hull and rudder box shoulders. The blade is more solid in the down position and can only wobble laterally measured at the bottom of the blade at about 10mm and not the 20 mm without the shim. The rest of this slop is caused by the undersize pin in the system. This will help reduce the shock as it vibrates but better still restricts the amount the pin can bend to the difference between the diameters of holes and pin ie .8mm. Hopefully that will help reduce the possibility of premature failure....Pirate


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:29 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 4:43 am
Posts: 130
Location: Seal Beach California
Pirate have you considered getting a sheet of teflon stock and wrapping it around the pin to take out some of the remaining gap. I have material on order and will try this. However, I welcome your and others advice about this idea.
Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:05 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:39 am
Posts: 863
Location: Bairnsdale, Victoria Australia
MRL wrote:
Pirate have you considered getting a sheet of teflon stock and wrapping it around the pin to take out some of the remaining gap. I have material on order and will try this. However, I welcome your and others advice about this idea.
Mike

On my boat the diameter of the pin is 7.6mm, the brass insert 8mm & the rudder box holes 8.4mm. This makes pin sheaving difficult. I would prefer brass inserts building up the rudder box gudgeon holes and sheave the boat's brass insert with a stainless insert if necessary. Hobie would have done their homework in relation to the pin material which I am sure is fine if not for these hole size anomalies....Pirate

PS..I have been since informed by a trusted source that aluminium or stainless would be the most suitable materials for the inserts as the brass will corode in seawater.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group