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 Post subject: Up down rudder lines
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:25 pm 
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Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:30 am
Posts: 15
Location: Clearwater FL
I thought they always seemed to bind. It looked like they were always twisting around each other. I changed the pulleys out to swivel pulleys and they work much better. no more twisting. Might be a change Hobie should make.


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 Post subject: Re: Up down rudder lines
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:36 am 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 11358
Location: Oceanside, California
We didn't go with swivels because the line themselves can induce twist... and spin the swivels.

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Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
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Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject: Re: Up down rudder lines
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:21 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:03 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Perth Western Australia
So you explained why you didn't fit a swivel pulley, but what do we do about twisting lines?
I was getting weed stuck on my Hobie TI rudder so I tried to raise it but it kept jamming :-(
20 Knot winds while surfing big swell was down right dangerous with rudder issues? On inspection once home I found the lines fwd of the pulley twisted and as I pulled the rear rudder up it moved the pulley & tightened the twist until it jammed? If this was a car they would have a full recall?
So whats the fix??
Cheers
OzyMark
http://vid806.photobucket.com/albums/yy350/Markrel/Hobie%20TI/GOPR7518.mp4

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 Post subject: Re: Up down rudder lines
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:13 pm
Posts: 127
Location: San Antonio, TX
This happens to me as well. If I notice that my lines are twisted, I'll pull the Up/down line (which ever one I'm untwisting) all the way out and twist the handle/line, the opposite direction of the pulley twist, as the line retracts back into the hull (hope this makes sense). It takes repeating this process a few times but it eventually works out the twist. This doesn't completely solve the problem, but it's an easy enough way to undo the twist when it develops.

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 Post subject: Re: Up down rudder lines
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:09 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:03 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Perth Western Australia
Yes that does make sense, it will be easier than undoing the pulley block :)
You are also correct, it fixes immediate problem but doesnt fix the issue!
Thanx for you reply, Ill give it a try in the morning & see how I go :)

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 Post subject: Re: Up down rudder lines
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:10 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 2569
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
An old thread, but my 2012 TI has now been afflicted by the dreaded line twist as well, and the last four outings before I discovered the cause were dangerous to varying degrees. One time I had to make an emergency landing through surf, and another I needed to use my emergency steering to stay off the rock walls of my local ocean/lake channel in strong current-induced standing waves. The excessive force I was applying to the tiller resulted in my rudder lines coming loose at the rudder, which I initially thought was the cause of my steering problems, but I now realise they were only symptoms of the other issue.

I have decided that my TI is no longer safe to use until this problem is resolved.

Because I finally realised it was because I was having trouble getting the rudder fully down, that steering became impossible heavy without the counter-balance available from the forward part of the rudder being in front of the rudder pivot. The final clue during my troubleshooting was that the rudder could not be pulled down manually from about 45 degrees, even with both handles slack. Initially I had concentrated on the down line (as the up line appeared to be working flawlessly), but then I realised that the up-line was not releasing completely, even with the handle back in its home.

I initially tried rotating the handle numerous times to "unwind" the rudder line, but so far no major improvement has resulted. Manually untwisting enables the down-line to fully lower the rudder, but after just one pull on the up-line, the down-line again gets stopped with the rudder at 45 degrees. Bastard!

I can agree with Matt's comment that a swivel pulley is not the answer (as the twist occurs in front of the pulley), and I suspect the proper solution is to add a swivel in the middle of the up-line, somewhere just forward of the middle of the front seat. The difficulty is to find the exact spot which will not interfere with pulling on either up handle - not easy to determine when it is all out of sight.

Anyone got any suggestions? (BTW, in case anyone is thinking it, now, I have never twisted the up handle...)

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker!


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 Post subject: Re: Up down rudder lines
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:49 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 2846
Location: South Florida
tonystott wrote:
An old thread, but my 2012 TI has now been afflicted by the dreaded line twist as well...The excessive force I was applying to the tiller resulted in my rudder lines coming loose at the rudder, which I initially thought was the cause of my steering problems, but I now realise they were only symptoms of the other issue.

I have decided that my TI is no longer safe to use until this problem is resolved.

Because I finally realised it was because I was having trouble getting the rudder fully down, that steering became impossible heavy without the counter-balance available from the forward part of the rudder being in front of the rudder pivot. The final clue during my troubleshooting was that the rudder could not be pulled down manually from about 45 degrees, even with both handles slack. Initially I had concentrated on the down line (as the up line appeared to be working flawlessly), but then I realised that the up-line was not releasing completely, even with the handle back in its home....

Very important points, Tony, and, yes, if the rudder is not fully down (absolutely tucked against the stern when down), it is very weak for steerage. Or, if you try to force it, the rudder-control line (usually just one) at the rudder can be pulled loose, and, then, you have a bigger problem. Once a rudder-control line pulls loose, you go in a circle until you crash into something. Been there, done that.

My most recent mod, is to install auxiliary, external rudder-control lines, in the event one of the internal rudder-control lines stops functioning.

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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 Post subject: Re: Up down rudder lines
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:46 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:25 pm
Posts: 351
Location: Jaco, Costa Rica
My fix was to pull out all the crap and rerun the rudder lines to the rear seat only, since that is where I operate solo. I run the lines thru added plastic tubing, do away with the limiter and bungee. No more twisting or catching on itself. Just a straight up and down/ turn. Have to use a little more force on the up/down, but not an issue and rudder is locked into place.

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Costa Rica Kayak Guide
http://www.cryaker.com
Tandem Island- 2013
Revolution 11-2015


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 Post subject: Re: Up down rudder lines
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:08 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2454
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
This has been an annoying problem on all my TI's since day one (6 yrs now), and I have had issues with twisting rudder down lines, with them eventually becoming inoperable on all my TI's (3). On my current TI I finally got tired of the rudder down lines tangling, and making the rudder either not go up, or not go down all the way and re-routed the lines so only the front rudder down line operates now. My TI is a 2012 model hopefully Hobie has addressed this by now. I don't care what they do or how they fix it, and am not about to solve for them (not my problem), it's a poor design that I feel should be improved.
FE


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 Post subject: Re: Up down rudder lines
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:45 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 2569
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Okay, my tiny brain has put some effort into this, and I took a photo from below inside, showing just how difficult access is from the rudder-up handle area to the Harken turning block (which redirects the rudder up-line back to a "flying block" behind the rear rudder-up handle on my TI). The flying block goes back to the rudder, with a bungee tensioner (needed to retract the rudder-up handle when released).

Image
In the photo, I have passed some solder through the handle tube to show the relationship with the turning block.

I now see that on later Islands (I have only seen the 2016 AI2, so don't know when it was introduced), the turning block has been moved towards the bow, enabling easy access from the front hatch.

So rather than attempting to "thread the needle" by pushing line through the handle hole and fiddling around in the hope that the end of the line will magically drop into the block, I will fit another block up forward like on current models. In addition, I will add a swivel between the new line and the existing one, in the hope that I won't get any twists again. Either way, I will be able to untie the line at he joint to remove any twists.

Some of you might be asking why this has happened to me? Well it might be a clue that the other Island users who mentioned having similar issues are prolific users, suggesting that the line twist occurs over time. Hobie's (and anyone else's) relocation of the block should at least simplify the fix.

I would like to thank Hobiecat Australasia for going above and beyond to help me solve this issue.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker!


Last edited by tonystott on Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Up down rudder lines
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:12 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 2454
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Tony:
I think you are on point with your assessment, the more I use just one of the up/down rudder pull down lines, (vs both equally) the worse the twisting problem gets. I tend to mostly sit in the front seat, thus the front rudder down line gets used more often. Over time the line around the pulley tends to get all twisted, once past a certain point the rear down line no longer operates, then the front down line begins to bind, eventually binding, then breaking if you try to overcome the binding with force.
I found that by exercising both the front and rear rudder down lines once in a while seems to help keep the pulley turning into a twisted unrecoverable mess. The rudder up line mechanism doesn't appear to have the same issues.

You are correct, the entire system is very difficult to access and try to repair once it gets tangled beyond a certain point. In my case mine became so tangled, the lines eventually broke and I had to run a new down line to only the front seat (abandoning the rear rudder down line). More because I couldn't reach and repair the existing lines than anything else.

My current TI is a 2012 model, I have no clue if the design has been improved on newer models.
Just somethin to watch for that if ignored becomes a really difficult issue to repair.

And yes I am a very heavy user (use the boat a lot).
Just my own observations/opinions as a user (I have no affiliation with Hobie cat co.)
FE


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 Post subject: Re: Up down rudder lines
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:18 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 2569
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Here is a how-to for people fixing these lines.

*First, I undid the rudder "up" handle, letting the line fall through into the hull.
* Retrieved the line through the hatch under the knees (front seat on TI)
* Unfortunately, the new cheekblock didn't make it out of Hobie Oz before the Christmas shut-down, so I carefully unscrewed the existing one located about 5 inches in from of the rudder "up" handle.
* Refitted the cheekblock forward of the crossbar (about level with the rear hatch bungee fitting), and about 5 inches below the hatch opening.
* Shortened the line about 5 inches, and tied it to a ball-raced swivel (just a bit overkill - 412# breaking strain!)
* Sent some spare line (A) back to the round hatch using a fishing rod, and tied it onto the swivel (temporarily)
* Threaded new line (B) through the rudder handle, and brought it forward using that fishing rod again!
* Once the new line was (B) threaded through the cheekblock, I tied it to the line A so I could pull it back to the round hatch
* Tied line B to the swivel, and untied line A (no longer needed)
* Pulled up the rudder "up" line (til the rudder was fully seated in the up position) and cleated it under the mesh pocket
* Put the handle back on the line and tied a knot where the internal bungee will neatly return the handle to its socket when the line is uncleated (ie: rudder in the down position.)

Now I hear the healthy "clunk" as the rudder hits either fully up or fully down, and I expect my TI to be much better behaved in future!

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker!


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