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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:54 pm 
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KonaTI2 wrote:
It will sure be interesting if Hobie does come out with a jib kit to see how the system is designed.
And the price.

How much do you folks calculate the foresail mods have cost you?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:23 pm 
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NOHUHU wrote:
KonaTI2 wrote:
It will sure be interesting if Hobie does come out with a jib kit to see how the system is designed.
And the price.
How much do you folks calculate the foresail mods have cost you?

Not sure how much it cost me but the real questions are how extensive of a jib system will Hobie be marketing. One that allows the mainsail and jib to furl with a topper or one like Hobies early prototype where the jib attaches to the mainsail loop on the TI. Will they reinforce the bow? Will there be stays on their setup? The mix of these features will influence the cost and complexity. I'm looking forward to seeing what they ultimately come up with and if it will also be available for AI's.

My guess is it will be a very simple non furling jib or spinnaker attached to the loop on the sail. And some simple gizmo attached to the bow to absorb some of the stresses - maybe not quite as extensive as the bow reinforcements most of us have done.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:00 pm 
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Let's see the cost........all told 500-600. The jib was the bulk of it at 300.00. I purchased way too much extra stainless hardware but wanted it on hand as this was an engineer on the fly project. The extra cleats add up. If a person already had a sail probably could do it for 200.00.

It would be nice to see if any of the ideas from this tread make it into production! I'm also curious how big the jib would be. I,m very happy with the size that I chose. Here is a shot of going "Bat wing"
Image


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:38 pm 
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NOHUHU :
The materials for my wing jib sail were only about a hundred bucks, and most of it I already had laying around, a lot of the sailcloth material was left over scraps from when I made my spinnaker sail a few yrs ago and was just laying around. My jib mast is an old painter extension pole I had laying around (I would guess a new one would be around $20 bucks or so). It took me about 2-3 weekends of actual work to lay out, then cut and sew everything together. Of course this is not including the two fricken years it took to dream it up, the construction part of it was actually really simple and easy (anyone can build one easily).
My 135 sq ft spinnaker cost a little more (a lot more material), I think I spent around $150 bucks in materials, and it took several weekends to sew it all together (note those spinnakers are huge and fill up our entire bedroom when laid out, I think it took around 10-12 spools of expensive upholstery thread to sew it all together.

My bowsprit I did in a weekend, I had an old fiberglass ax handle laying around in the garage for the last 20 yrs ( I designed and developed them originally), I cut the yellow plastic off it and re-purposed the 3 ft fiberglass pultrusion ( I imagine a new fiberglass replacement handle at home depot would be around $10-$12 bucks). I used 2 pieces of 3/4 sq aluminum 1/8 wall tubing each 4 ft long, I think they were around $25 bucks for both (don't remember for sure, I got them at lowes). I bought 1 piece of 1/8 x 2 x 36" long aluminum (Lowes, around $12 buck I think), about $3-$4 dollars in stainless screw (mostly 8/32), and 1 piece of 1/8" x 1/2" x 36" aluminum bar ( about $5 bucks) that made my clamps around the aka bar out of, I just bent them by hand around the aka bar (being a tool maker I have very strong fingers LOL), then screwed them to the 3/4" sq aluminum bars with 8/32 flat heads. I pick my boat up by the end of that bowsprit every weekend, and the bow sprit is still going strong after 3 1/2 yrs of really heavy use (and abuse).

My mast topper, I think the 12 inch long piece of 1 1/4 brass tube was around $5 bucks at Home Depot ( I bought all this stuff 4 yrs ago and it's hard to remember exact numbers), I'm still using the same original brass drain tube.

My first mast topper itself was a 3ft steel rod fit and glued into a galvanized 1 inch T connector with a 4 inch union sticking out the bottom with a bolt sticking out the bottom. (probably under $10 buck for everything. I used that topper for several yrs but it was over 4 lbs, so I made a new one last year made from another one of those 3 ft fiberglass pultrusions, I used a 1" PVC T and a small section of 1" PVC tubing to make the new mast topper. I ran the fiberglass pultrusion thru the long leg of the T connector, I then took two small pieces of 1/8" x 1/2" aluminum stock (left over from the bow sprit) and jammed them into the T from the bottom (along both sides the pultrusion down at the bottom). I then placed a steel rod in the center of the bottom (sticking out about 2 inches out the bottom (for the point bearing). I then taped up the ends of the T and filled the whole works with west systems epoxy. To test out the mast topper I strung a rope with each end attached to the ends of the mast topper, then raised the mast, I can sit in the sling (like a swing) with all my weight and the mast topper doesn't break, I estimate it would take around 600 lbs of force to bend the mast topper cross bar, and around 300 lbs to break the T if only pulling down on the front only (without a rear stay), the whole mast topper is around 2 lbs. The original mast topper that I made in spring 2010 still works fine and is sitting in the garage as a backup. The new mast topper would have cost around $15 bucks to make (most of that being the cost of the pultrusion), but I had everything laying around the garage (I think I still have a couple of those old ax handles left from 20 yrs ago laying around somewhere), Actually I had everything just laying around so the mast topper didn't cost anything to make.

My motor mount is 3 pieces of 1 1/2 PVC tubing, two 3/8" dia steel rods, and a six inch piece of pressure treated 2x4, I built the whole thing in one afternoon back in April 2010 (the third day I had my TI), that stupid motor mount is still going strong with way over 3000 sailing miles on it, it didn't cost me more than $15 dollars to make it, and about 3-4 hrs labor.
I think I have around $750 bucks total in mods on my TI (not including the cost of my $1000 dollar Honda emergency backup motor obviously) that I have spent over the last 4 yrs. Of course this doesn't include the purchase cost of 3 TI's either
This does not include the Hydrofoils that I built 3 yrs ago, that's kind of a sore subject with me, as I have way too much time, effort, and money (about $300 bucks in materials (mostly aluminum)) invested in those foils trying to develop something that is practical.
That's what I got. ( you asked)
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:10 am 
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So having got the idea that there might be a plastic solution I had a go at a topper this weekend.

The essence of it is that rather than slot a thin tube into the one that goes over the mast i made it round the other way. The bearing (?) bit is turned in cherry wood and polished. Basically two points facing each other. The bit taking the load is made from a drain cleaning rod which is pretty stiff and made for pushing and pulling down drains so might work in this instance.

It all spins around nicely. Once i have tested it with the blocks that are on order I will stick it all together and give it a sail.

Here are some photos.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:02 am 
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Here is the jib being tested on dry land.

cant for the life of me work out how to get the you tube video thing working


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fESdnEwPIM

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fESdnEwPIM[/youtube]


cc

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Last edited by Chopcat on Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:15 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:13 am 
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Chopcat:
You need to make the video public for it to work.
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:39 am 
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thanks Bob.
cc

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:56 am 
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Chopcat :
Awesome setup, Hobie should model their jib option after yours.

Your going to have fun with it.
I have a feeling you will not want to go out without the jib mounted and ready to go once you start using it. I know in my case, I wouldn't think of ever going out without my jib. You will find you can point so much closer to the wind, also downwind is greatly improved if you configure in a batwing setup, you will find you don't even need a spinnaker. However don't be too disappointed on a 90 deg reach, since you are increasing the sail area, you will bury your AMA's sooner on a reach, so you will need to reef your main sooner than before, to fix that get out of that center seat and hike out more, I have a small piece of PVC pipe with a simple rope loop on the end that I use as a hiking stick for the rudder. If you don't hike out, you will only see maybe 1-2 mph increased speed on a reach, however if you can hike out you will see much more speed increase because of the jib and main working together as a team. (basically the jib accelerates and guides the air over your main increasing it's efficiency by a large factor).

Really nice
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:23 am 
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Cheers Bob

Don't worry we are a-hikin-mad.

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Trevor

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:34 am 
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Thanks for taking the time to post the jib video cc. Very nice and you gave me some ideas. You do great work and I love those hakas. They're too beautiful to dip in salt water and strap gear to : )


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:40 am 
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Funny enough Jim they have stood up to last year very well. That is the Epifanes varnish I think.
I don't need to re varnish this year at all!

Trevor

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:54 pm 
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Mrs C has the right idea. That''s my favorite spot to sail from.

CC, Here's your video:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fESdnEwPIM&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

The Jib is really coming along and I am quite jealous. Allow me to offer some comments,..

The deck mounted swivel cleats are brilliant. Let us know how that plastic attachment point holds up. I suspect it will be fine.

Jib lines that size are overkill for our small boats but lots of people opt for hand comfort and go with larger line. The drawbacks would be a less smooth payout, and increased bulk and weight when they are wet. Also they create a lot of wind drag. It may be harder to tack with those. Since the jib sheet is usually tacked and then locked, it's more advantageous to use a larger line on your main sail, which most of us keep in hand and adjust constantly.

Let us know if any wear develops on the mainsail from the jib clew hardware as it sweeps across. You'll want to watch it when it luffs too. A rope or a low profile shackle could help with that.

How did you select your sail? Is it a stock model for another boat? The size looks ok on yours and Konas boats, but the foot of the sail is lower than usual and I suspect they should be raised 6-10" to match the main profile better and keep things balanced. The ideal is to create bow lift while channeling wind toward the back of the main. A little more height will keep the sail safer and drier too.

Raising the foot will also help to close the wider than normal gap between the mast and the upper jib. You see how that gap widens toward the top? That could be closed by bringing the halyard closer, raising the sail, or extending the sprit. Or any combination...

This is all food for thought. The proof is in the sailing. I hope you can post some action shots (boat to boat too) for us to munch on. Would love to see both sails together in full profile. Will be watching the telltales.

Thanks for sharing your handiwork, and for bumping up fusionbob's thread.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:50 am 
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N

The sail is for a dinghy called a Graduate http://www.roostersailing.com/merchant2 ... _Code=3889 so is a production one made by a company called Rooster Sailing. It just seemed the right size, was reasonably priced (second hand) but had not been used.

I have a block coming for the jib and will see how the ropes go and change so something smaller possibly.

With the furling thing at the bottom of the sail I am not sure how I can raise it without it spinning around. maybe there are extension bits that will do the job?

I see what you mean re the angle of the sail and will play around with it. So much to learn.

Next post should be some sailing film ....maybe

Trevor

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:35 pm 
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It's a great cut. As large as we would want to go on our boats. When you furl it a bit the foot rises and the whole thing seems to assume a better shape, so it will be simple for you to experiment with that.

Having a larger genoa shape is an advantage going downwind. Let it fly all the way out and consider an outhaul setup. You'll be amazed.

I noticed your topper Picts had various lengths to the jib halyard and backstay. Is it fixed in place or does the horizontal tube slide in/out? If you have a way to adjust that positioning for now, it will really help you figure out the best way to balance the final system.


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