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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:46 am 
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Can I ask a STOOPID question? I don't mean this question disrespectfully? I'm asking the question sincerely.

What is the point behind adding a jib to the TI? I've owned a TI for two years and sail pretty regularly. In my experience, possibly the biggest issue with the TI is how easily the Mainsail overpowers the boat in winds over about 12knots. In winds over about 12 knots an I reeves mainsail hurts the leeward AMA bleeding speed. This forces you (me) to reef the sail.

In light of this, why would one want to add a jib? Wouldn't this simply bury the leeward AMA at 6 or 7 knots? I guess the goal might be to make the TI a better light air boat. However, with all of this effort to mod the AI and TI, I've always wondered why there isn't more effort put into solving the "buried AMA" issue.

Am I wrong here? Does the TI actually need MORE sail area? Would it actually benefit from more sail area? Wouldn't it benefit even more from a better AMA design to harness the lost mainsail capacity?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:39 am 
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leelanauX :
Not a stupid question at all, you are correct in winds over around 10-12 mph on a reach just the TI mainsail alone has too much sail area and has to be reefed. Unfortunately for me I live on the Florida West coast and I'm out on my TI every weekend sailing, the typical winds here are only 4-6mph ten months out of the year. It's only once in a blue moon that we get winds higher than 8mph, and at least around here when we get higher wind we unfortunately get huge waves and chop which makes going out a very unpleasant (and very wet) experience. With my TI with just the mainsail I can reasonably expect the boat to sail at around .6 of wind speed, so in 6mph winds I'm sailing 3-4 mph (while pedaling). Around here in the summer it gets very hot and with no wind (from boat speed) it's like sitting in a frying pan with the yellow hull as the yoke (LOL).
With just the mainsail I am very lucky to be able to sail 45 degrees off the wind (upwind). With my old standard (non wing) jib I can sail upwind 25-30 degrees off the wind (much better upwind performance). With my wing jib I can easily sail 10-15 degrees off the wind (upwind) at better than 1=1 windspeed (faster than the wind).
Unfortunately the winds around here are typically from the north or south and Sarasota bay is about 15 miles long north to south (but only a couple miles wide) so basically 90% of the time you sailing either upwind or downwind (your choice) but very seldom on a reach. Same goes when we are down in Key West the wind is mostly from the east or west (trade winds), and guess which way we want to go 90% of the time when there (either east or west).
The guys out on the Hawaiian Islands, California and the Aussies think were nuts because their winds don't typically go below 15 mph, and have no need for more sail area.
However if you do add more sail to a TI you have to be able hike out in order to counter the side force from the sail. In other words you have to get out of the back seat (where you are trapped) and sail from the front seat where you can climb out on the tramps to counter the side force of the sail just like with any cat, moth, class A mono, or Weta trimaran. Watch some of Tom Kirkmans videos on his Weta, you will see the whole object is to hike out so the AMA's hopefully stay out of the water altogether, as soon as either AMA touches the water it creates huge drag on the boat (slows you down a lot). As an example with my TI if I have all 265 sq ft of sail out and we are running a good downwind run (120 degrees off the wind) in 20mph plus winds it takes 2 adults hiked all the way out on the leeward hull to counteract the heeling force from the sails, the boat is traveling 18-20 mph and if a gust were to hit us burying the AMA it would rip the AMA off (not the nylon bolts, "the actual AMA bars would break"), and if without hull re-enforcement on the bow if we hit a big boat wake the hull would fold at the front hatch. And at that speed if you crank the rudder hard it just snaps off and flies up in the air (been there done that a lot (frustrating)).

On an F18 with over 500 sq ft of sail I think it takes two guys on trap lines on their tippie toes standing against the outside of the leeward hull (which is 4-5 feet out of the water) to keep from tipping over.

If you want to go fast get an H16 or any cat, the TI is not designed for speed it's designed as an SUV. I just have mine rigged for our local conditions and what I use the boat for because I get very bored going 3-4 mph in the hot sun with not enough wind to cool me down, and I don't want to take all day getting out to our dive sites (typically at least 5 miles off shore).

The additional sails and rigging and accessories (ie... motors, foils, etc) on my boat are not there to make it go fast, they are all intended to make the boat more versatile and capable in pretty much any conditions (even low or no wind).


Short answer, you have to hike out.
Hope this answers your question.
Bob

BTW: If you hike out on the tramps there is no need to reef the sail ever, the point is to try to keep the training wheels out of the water ( LOL, "that's what the monohull guys call them")


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:22 pm 
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Yep, its low wind and sailing up wind that is motivating me, not so much about trying to go faster. Unlike Bob, I do get reasonable winds here, but I face the same situation of mostly sailing up wind or down wind.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:29 pm 
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Ditto on the low winds.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:57 pm 
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Tom Kirkman wrote:
I'll draw it up this evening and post it. It's terribly simple.

Sometime next week I'll shoot a quick video and post it on my Youtube channel.

This allows you to stay the mast, add a jib or even a furling jig, but retain the ability to furl the mainsail.


Tom, did you ever get a chance to do a video of your mast topper idea?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:02 pm 
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The local Hobie Island club in Sarasota FL had another fun get together today ( https://www.facebook.com/DolphinIslandClub ), we circled Lido key (going out into the gulf) which is about a ten mile sail. Myself and another TI owned by Sue were running a little behind the main group (we were talking to another AI owner), the main group went ahead out and we said we would catch up. The winds were very light (around 5mph from the south), this is not typically a problem for me since I have massive sails on the boat (rigged for the typical light winds in the area), and since I have a human/hybrid tri-powered boat thing going on (what the boat was designed for).
Well to make a long story short (too late), by the time Sue and I got out New Pass (near the launch) the tide was already coming in and there was almost no wind so we pedaled out the pass, by the time we both got out the pass and out to open water we were a full hour behind the rest of the group. This was Sue's first time out by herself and I just didn't feel comfortable leaving her on her own. At this time we were out in the gulf off the north end of Lido key in very low wind (<5mph) coming directly from the south (the direction we needed to travel). I wasn't looking forward to tacking into the wind the next 5 miles to big pass at 3 mph (to stay with Sue) so I offered to tow her upwind and hopefully catch up with the rest of the group (now over an hour ahead of us). She agreed so I unhooked one of my spinnaker control lines and tossed her the end. She tied it to her front AKA bar. I looped around the paddle clip on my rear AKA and started towing her. We sailed with her TI slightly behind and to the right of my TI on the windward side, she was around 120 degrees off my starboard and about 20 ft out. She still had her sail up and was sailing (her wind was clean that far away and both behind and to the right (windward side of me).
Lets get this straight Sue is no babe in the woods when it comes to sailing, she's been sailing all her life and is a regular at the sailing squadron, and has been helmsman on several big boats so she knows her stuff, but she is new to the TI, and this was actually her first time out by herself on the TI.

OK back to the story, as we started off she started questioning my jerry rigged tether setup, and said how in the heck are we going to tack with me to the side. My answer was "oh I don't tack, never do, it's just way too much extra effort". Ok now she is really regretting tethering on to me now (and starting to freak out I'm sure), thinking were going nowhere fast with this cluster setup (you could see it in her eyes LOL), and I'm sure she envisioned tacking at 3mph for the next 5 miles for the next 2-3 hrs constantly bumping into each other to get back into Sarasota bay. Once we were all set I opened up my throttle on my motor to the normal 1/4 throttle, engaged the main and the wing jib and proceed to sail directly upwind (well almost directly we were about 5-10 points off the wind). We took off and immediately got up to around 6-6.5 mph, and occasionally got up over 7.5 mph as we eased over the 2-3 ft offshore rollers. Nice steady wind around 5-6mph, our top speed for the day was 8.5 mph according to my gps log.
We finally caught up with the rest of the group in big pass, they were all in irons in the shallows between bird and lido keys in I would guess 6 inches of water, I stayed in deeper water and we finally met them down near the low bridge. We talked for a while, then I think they decided to drop their sails and go under the low bridge then back to the launch. Sue an I decided to sail out in deeper water, out and around bird key and back under the big main bridge. I kept on asking her if she wanted me to cut her loose, but she didn't want to be left alone, I had no interest in sailing back the 5-6 miles back to launch at a snails pace so I asked her if we could just leave the tether on and we could get back way faster, she then said she was having the most fun she ever had and was having the time of her life, it actually was a lot of fun sailing in close formation and talking. Once we got into the Sarasota bay main channel and away from the keys and buildings we ended up with a nice steady reach wind (around 100 degrees off our bow) at around 5-6 mph. We averaged around 7 mph on the way back. Once we got back to the launch we put the boats away and she offered to buy me a beer in the Sailing squadron (my first time in there), which is right next door to Thompson Park (where I usually launch from) it's seems like a very nice place, and all the people are very friendly.
I checked how much fuel I used on the motor and the tank was still almost half full when we got back, so total fuel cost for the day was between $.50 and $.75 cents, but boy my legs were like rubber, towing the other boat I had to pedal much harder than normal the whole distance.

Fun day, made new friends, got my workout for the day on a beautiful sunny day in the 80's, got to see the inside of the Sarasota Sailing squadron, got a free beer, and am still in total awe how versatile and capable the Human/Hybrid tri-powered 'Ultimate Tandem Island' is turning out to be (I actually towed another TI around all day and it only slowed me down just a couple mph), I have no idea what it all means, but it sure was fun ( LOL)
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:28 am 
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I was having trouble finding a suitable pipe to make the the mast topper so I contacted a local Stainless Steel fabricator who makes a number of kayak/hobie accessories stealthserpent.com

The owner, Tas, asked me to drop around to explain what I was after and he ended up welding this up while I waited.

Image

Image

It all went on the mast easy enough. I got Tas to weld two eyelets on the front of the mast topper, just in case I decide to add a spinnaker later.

Image

Image

I have also picked up a second hand jib sail which apparently came off a Hobie 16. Not my choice of colour but it was cheap and is just for testing anyway.

Image

Now the Jib sail has a wire through the luff. I'm not sure if it will furl without having more tension on the luff than I would be comfortable with. Can I rig the sail to furl around the wire luff or will I need to modify the sail to insert a mast?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:50 am 
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John_h :
All I can say is WOW, that is a very nice piece of work, and should get the job done. The only minor issue I'm seeing is there will be a bit of friction when rotating the mast, which is not a show stopper.

Here is a pic of my mast topper:
Image

See the little rod sticking out the bottom, this is the pin point bearing, it spins on top of that cross bolt (the one that has the strap over it holding the sail up). It is pointed like watch bearings to reduce the amount of friction (just like the one on the bottom of the mast). Though it's not a huge deal breaker (it will work without the bearing) as the downward force goes up (example,,, pulling that Hobie jib tighter so it can work), the force required to rotate the main mast goes up. All this means is you will have to scooch and slide up to the mast and help it unfurl a little near the end (the last few turns). Furling the main in is never a problem an long as you furl it without load on it (pointing into the wind (which you should always do anyway)).
Best thing to do is try it, and if it is too hard to unfurl, just adding a pin point bearing should be pretty easy.

If you make an uphaul line (halyard) with a pulley at the top for the jib, I think you will be fine. On my halyard line I run the line through a piece of 3/8 PVC waterpipe so it can't get tangled in the mainsail when furling/unfurling). I then added an additional harken cleat on the far left position (hobies has the holes for the harken cleat all threaded and ready to mount, just be careful the screws are not to long so the screws don't interfere with the left AKA bar mechanism.

Hobie makes two different types of jibs for it's H16's One that is furlable, and the other which is not. Hopefully one of the H16 experts can look at your pic above and let us know which style this jib is.

You will likely need a rear stay line to help the jib keep it's shape, as the Hobies mast is very flexible, you need something to prevent it from bending forward. Side to side bending is not a problem (actually that bending action is important and you don't want to interfere with the side to side, or the backward bending of the mast). I used a 3/16 dia nylon rope (must be stretchy). When at rest there is almost no tension on the rear stay line, and when your sailing and the main mast gets bent back (which is normal) the rear stay actually becomes loose. The rear stay prevents the mast topper from turning sideways, and most importantly when on a downwind in a batwing configuration (main to the left and jib to the right sides), this rear stay takes some of the stress off of that little 1/4" bolt that holds the bottom of the mast holder to the hull (this 1/4" stud is the weakest link in the chain and must be protected (by the rear stay line)). I also run the rear stay line inside 3/8 PVC waterpipe, this prevents the line from tangling on the mainsail, and also keeps the ropes from getting all tangled, When done sailing I just break down the 3/8 pipe in the middle, fold it in half and lay it on top of the boat for storage. I have clips at the top and bottom that just snap to the back of the mast topper, then to the rear lifting cleat in the back of the boat.
Don't worry too much about side to side force on the mast holder, the design they have is very strong, and I have never had any difficulties with the strength of the mast itself (it is really strong, of course within reason)
To raise the mast I typically clip the rear stay to the back of the mast topper, I typically have the jib halyard (both ends) down near the bottom, I put the sail in front of the boat (with the mast topper installed). I nest the bottom of the mast right next to the mast holder against the AKA bar, and walk the mast vertical. Once vertical I lift the mast and slide it into the mast holder. I then grab the rear stay line and clip it to the rear lifting cleat. I then run my jib halyard thru the cleat and hoist the jib up the halyard, (it actually doesn't take much longer than normal (without the jib or mast topper), basically no matter what you do you have to raise the mast anyway (lol).
When done for the day I furl the main, furl the jib (mine has a mast) and just let the jib lay down in the boat, I never remove anything from the boat (jib remains attached at the front along with all of its control lines). After droppin the mast I also lay that on top of the boat (lengthways). I take the mast topper and fold the two 3/8 tubing pieces in half and just throw the whole mast topper and all it lines into the boat ( I leave all the lines connected at the front bow). Everything is then strapped down and tidy for the next time I go out. I never remove anything from my boat, including the motor, anchor system, all the sails, and rigging. My spray curtains are double duty, when not being used, I fold them over the bow of the boat (in the forward hatch area) and the spray curtains protect everything from the highway wind, and keeps all the ropes and sails bundled together (it's actually a pretty nice setup).

If you can attach that H16 jib in a similar fashion to the way they are attached on the H16, this will help you a lot. For it to work properly, I think most of the force on the clew needs to be downward (trying to run the jib with a sail control line similar to the mainsail will not work (on the main the sail control line runs back to the back of the boat at a very shallow angle, this won't work on the cat jib (steeper is better)), you will need to develop a happy medium with trial and error (your breaking new ground here).
Hope this helps you
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:31 am 
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John_h wrote:
Now the Jib sail has a wire through the luff. I'm not sure if it will furl without having more tension on the luff than I would be comfortable with. Can I rig the sail to furl around the wire luff or will I need to modify the sail to insert a mast?

John, I recommend you modify the sail to accommodate a mast (piece of pvc works). I tried several setups using a wire in the jib and it was always a sloppy inefficient furl no matter what I did.

I love your setup ... it should work great.

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Jim


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:07 pm 
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Hi Bob, I've been looking at the photos you have posted of your setup and I can't see where you have routed your jib uphaul line. Does it rub along the luff of the jib? Where do you put and tie off the excess line once you have raised the jib?

CaptnChaos, I will put a PVC mast on my list of things to do.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:02 pm 
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John-H:
Here is a pic of my TI taken over the weekend on a Hobie Island club outing (I believe this is the first pic ever of my boat not taken by me from my Iphone sitting in the seat). In the above story, the grey TI behind my yellow TI is the one I towed all day, they took this pic as we were approaching and caught up with the main sailing group (it was actually a very fun day).
That's my wing jib in the photo.

Image

If you look at the 3/8 pvc water pipe running down next to the mast (on the right of the mast in pic), that is the jib up haul line (jib halyard). Basically I raise the main mast (just like everyone else does), I then clip the halyard to the top of the jib and haul it up. I run it thru one of my harkin cleats (I have 5 across the front AKA cross bar), usually the one on the far left. I then stuff the excess wad of line ( I use 1/8 dia 500 lb test paracord) and stuff the excess into the pocket on the trampoline, when I don't have the tramps up I stuff the excess cord into the mesh pocket in the front seat. Typically the halyard is only used when launching or putting the boat away, very seldom do I raise or lower the jib once I'm out on the water.

The line in the very front is the spinnaker halyard line (just clipped to the bow to keep it out of the way), the uphaul for that line is actually the rear stay line looped in a big circle and tied to the rear AKA bar with the excess line stuffed into the same tramp pocket. If I ever use my giant spinnaker (which is almost never anymore since going to wing jib) I just climb up and unclip the halyard line and haul the spinnaker up (the spinnaker is laying furled up on the right side of the boat). All the control lines for everything stay attached all the time to everything. I never remove any of the sails from the boat. Actually if I'm actually planning to use the spinnaker on any given day I will hoist it up at launch and just leave it up and furled in place for the day, all the sails are easy to raise and lower out on the water, nothing ever seems to get tangled up. Actually I used one of my spinnaker control lines to pull that TI with (the spinnaker control lines one on each side of the boat go back to the ends of the rear AKA bars where I have pulleys mounted), the rope forms a complete loop so I can pull the Assym spinnaker to either side depending which tack I'm on.
Bob


Last edited by fusioneng on Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:29 pm 
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Thanks Bob, I see how it works now.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:02 pm 
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Bob has a BOOM now! :shock: I didn't know that!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:14 pm 
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NOHUHU :
Yes I have always had that boom on the wing jib (part of the basic design). The wing jib is like a giant rigid airplane wing about 5-6 inches thick that is mounted vertically, the boom creates a truss structure that makes the wing rigid, that's why the back of the sail has a funny shape (that's the truss). To furl the sail I just unclip it from the boom and furl it up just like any other furling jib. I then just pull the boom out and stow it on the boat when not using it (along with everything else under the sun). Basically everything on the boat just stays on the boat, and I pull the boat up onto the trailer, and go home, the motor, anchor system, all the rigging just stay hooked up, I just lay the sails down on the hull and strap them down, really easy and fast.
That was the plan anyway with the jib, in reality, I found if I just leave the jib in neutral (symmetric foil shape) letting it free wheel like a weathervane it doesn't make any resistance to steering and control at all (even in the wind), initially to test it all out I pedaled around in figure 8's in 25mph winds and had no difficulty controlling the boat in the wind with the jib freewheeling, so now I just hoist the jib when I go out, and just leave it up all day, if I'm not using it I just let it freewheel. I've had it out in 25-30 mph winds and it doesn't effect the boat at all (their are air inlets on the leading edge that fill the sail with air, like a big balloon and the whole wing becomes absolutely rigid). So I kind of wasted my time making the furler system, since I only use it now when I get back to shore I furl the jib up, lower the halyard and just leave the jib laying on the deck (still attached at the front along with all the rigging. The big spinnaker is setup exactly the same way and just lays down on the right side when not being used. Everything is strapped down with a couple straps for transport on the trailer, it's actually a pretty slick setup. Setup is also a snap, I just put the mast topper on, step the main mast (same as everyone else does), clip on the jib and hoist it up the halyard, I then unfurl the jib, slide in the boom and clip two clips and I'm off. With the mast topper, I leave all the rigging hooked to it and just lay it across the hull, all the ropes are in 3/8 PVC water pipe which keeps them from getting all tangled.
Bottom line I have a lot of fun with the boat, that's all that really matters.
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:56 pm 
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And the boom qualifies you a "real" sailor, Bob! :lol: 'Cept you still can't hit your head.

Impressive John! You do appear to be on the right path there.

The bottom section of the topper slips over the naked mast snugly? This is sized for an AI mast right?

Will be interested to see if sail can handle having this rigid element in its most flexible area (especially on a TI) and how you handle the bowsprit challenge.

But well done so far,.. We'll be watching.


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