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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:10 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
John:
You have a really nice setup, if your winds are anything like the winds around south florida ( very light 10 months out of the year), then you will enjoy having that extra sail area on the jib. The nice part about it is if the wind picks up just furl the sails in some, and your good to go.
As I mentioned I finally retired my big spinnaker and removed it from the boat. I had the boat out over the weekend, and on a downwind (with the wind around 120 degrees from the nose) I was able to get up to around 12 mph in 15 mph winds, with your sail size I'm imagining your speeds will be similar. Doing a downwind run like this will be the determining factor to see if you have the angle rake on your jib correct. The angle of the jib must be great enough to create enough lift when on a downwind run to keep the bow from burying underwater (Nautilus mode) " this is important". If you find the bow going underwater you may have to move the top of the jib closer to the main (making a steeper angle on the jib). Of course a barber hauler on the main so you can pull it wider always helps (I didn't have mine along that day). Basically a barber hauler is just a line tied to the outside AMA from the clew of the main so you can pull the mainsail further out on a downwind run (plenty of posts on here about how to make them).

I think you will find that your performance will be better up wind and down wind, but you will have only slight improvement on a 90 degree reach (maybe 1 mph increase). This is because the heeling force is so much more on a reach that you have to furl sooner on a reach than you would without the jib (or else tip over, which ever comes first, LOL), of course the more you hike out, the faster you can go, if you stay glued in the center seat don't expect much out of that jib, you will be disappointed. Obviously the physical requirements are much greater when adding a lot of sails and sail area to a TI or AI (no different than any other boat).
Not having increased performance on a 90 degree reach is not necessarily a bad thing. I have found that 90% of the time I need to go either upwind or downwind, very seldom do we get winds at 90 degrees from the direction I always want to go ( I think it's Murphys law which states, 'the wind is always from the direction you want to go'). With the jib you can point much higher and closer to the wind than you could ever imagine before. As a result I tend to tack way less, and go for the best VMG (velocity made good). I find the higher that I'm pointing into the wind, I can sail upwind with the sails (main and jib) fully open even in higher winds, as long as your careful not to let the boat turn broadside to the wind (you would go over for sure). I find that pulling the sails as tight as I can, then start pedaling as I'm turning off the wind, the boat takes off like a rocket upwind (on mine that works out around 10-15 degrees off the wind ("that's almost straight into the wind"), which in my opinion is awesome. Unfortunately if you stop pedaling, it all goes away very quickly ( the boat quickly rounds up into the wind, it's the pedaling and diligent rudder control that makes it all work). All this works perfectly in low winds up to around 12 mph wind, above that the wind force trying to push you backwards is greater than your pedals can compensate for unless you have two people pedaling hard (on the TI), or you have an auxiliary hybrid propulsion system (aka motor) like I have on my TI.
In conclusion, you will find out for yourself, that the technique for sailing with a big jib (genoa) is a little different from what you are used to, and you will try and avoid sailing on a direct reach (wind 90 degrees to the boat), which is counter intuitive since on most boats that's the best point of sail, on yours it will be the worst (hopefully this will all make sense, once you get used to the new system).
Hope this helps
Bob


Last edited by fusioneng on Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:42 pm 
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Location: Clearwater, Fl
Now you're hooked John. It's a lot of fun playing around with a jib on the islands. Looks like you did a great job on your setup too.

I have a question though. How tight was your rear stay while sailing? Was there quite a bit of tension on it most of the time? And did you put an adjustable line where it connects to the stern? If I revive my jib setup that's something that I may need to add.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:32 pm 
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Location: ACT Region, Australia
Thanks for your advice Bob, next time I am out I will take a GPS and do some actual testing.

Jim, I took Bob's advice and used a rope that has some stretch in the rear stay. I don't have it adjustable, it's just hooked up so it doesn't put any tension on the mast while not under sail. So it will only go tight if the jib tries to bend the mast forward.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:37 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
OK now that I have a new GoPro camera I thought I would make a video showing me doing my weekly sail, since this is my exercise program, I try to get out every weekend. Here in Sarasota FL, the winds are usually pretty light 10 months out of the year (4-7mph) and in the summer it's in the 90's and when out in the sun with no wind plodding along at the normal 2-3mph that my stock TI does in really low winds it's like sitting in a frying pan.
I thought I would try to do something about that. By developing and building a rigid wing jib sail, the performance of the boat in low winds is greatly increased. Actually to the point that in low winds (under 8mph) I can actually sail faster than the wind upwind.
With the human/hybrid power system in conjunction with the wing sail, I an getting pretty good performance out of my TI.
In the video below, my top speed for the day was 8.7mph while going upwind (I state in the video 8.3mph), this was up wind in 8mph winds so I was actually sailing faster than the wind.
All the time I was out I had the motor running at the normal 1/4 throttle, which enough to propel the boat to 3-4 mph with no sails up. To make this video it shows I traveled around 7 miles total, and was out on the water about an hour. I measure how much fuel I had used when I got back, and I had used 1/3 of a tank of gas (the tank is 1/3 gallon), so this ended up to be around $.40 cents of fuel for the day.
I much prefer sailing at 6-9 mph over 3-4 mph, at least you get enough wind blowing past to keep you cool.

However my boat is really only rigged for low winds (under 10mph) above 10 mph winds there really is very little performance gains except being able to sail straight into the wind. In higher winds the downwind performance really shines (the boat literally flies), the upwind performance is ok, but never faster than the wind, and it seems the higher the wind, the further I have to point off the wind. In winds over 15 mph the worst performance is on a reach because of the extra sail area, everything has to be reefed so much, there is no big advantage to having the extra sail area, unless you want to live on the edge and hike out, then it screams.

I'm posting 2 videos The first one is with my GoPro, the second one is with my original powersailing setup (same boat), you tell me which video you like better.

Here is the one made with my new GoPro:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDGNxvCyVeI&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

Now here is the same boat powersailing about a year ago (when I first discovered the tri-power ability of the TI)


If nothing else it has been a lot of fun for me.

Hey after watching both videos, they are both taken in the exact same place (near Ringling causeway and Lido beach in Sarasota bay). I think the winds on the second video were around 5 mph, and the first video they were around 8mph, other than that pretty much everything else is exactly the same (ie... exactly the same boat, just a little different jib (same sq ft, they are both around 30 sq ft) and a little different motor (same hp, and exactly the same 7" pitch propeller), but everything else is all the same.) "it must be the cameral" (LOL)

Conclusion: GoPro cameras make your boat way faster (LOL)

Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:30 am 
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After posting the video above I realized that unless someone knows me or has spent days reading through the long history of this thread, my video makes no sense at all.

The video above is the culmination of two long and very hard years of design and learning so I thought I would make a video basically showing the thoughts and reasoning behind the making of the movie, with the last 5 minutes being the above video (best played in High def with the stereo cranked (LOL)).

I also posted the video in it own thread in the adventures and sailing thread ( viewtopic.php?f=70&t=50169 )

Here is the movie: (also posted in adventures and sailing thread)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dgLYAfCuEw&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

For those that feel that they want to keep things simple, and don't want to mod their boat making it complex and difficult and time consuming to rig, I made this video showing me rigging the boat the day I made the first video. It took all of fifteen minutes from when I pull up to the water and I was ready to pull out and go sailing.
Here is the setup video:


Enjoy
Bob


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:01 am 
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Location: London UK
We're getting there.

the topper is on the workbench

Image

Image

next question is what cleat arrangement did you guys use for the downhaul on the jib?

CC

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:19 pm 
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Don't take this the wrong way, but "I like the cut of your jib, mate". :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:38 pm 
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FYI - soft wingsail on an F18 cat - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNbCZkd9tX0 - shows the inside of the sail as well which is interesting, and it's interesting watching them raise it at the start!

Perhaps this is something for an enterprising AI/TI?!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:15 pm 
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Location: Kailua-Kona Hawaii
Aloha all,

Thank you all that have contributed to this thread about adding a jib to the TI. I have over the past few months intently read and absorbed the various ways of doing each part of the very interesting project. I have gleaned what I feel is one of the ways to put it all together. I present to you my version of the add a jib project.ImageImageImage

It was a lot of hard work and more than a few unnecessary dollars spent but well worth the time and effort. It adds an interesting dimension to the TI experience. I have had it out in various wind conditions and have found no problems as of yet. There are still probably many minor tweaks left to do please chime in if you have any suggestions.Image

Thank you all again


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:21 pm 
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Nice!

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http://KayakingBob.com - - - - - Hobie Island Sailing since 2006 - - - - - 2011 & 2012 Hobie AIs and a 2012 TI


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:52 am 
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Looks very nice Kona

Have you changed your mounting for the job at the bow? Id so i little picture would be interesting. I am just on to mine now.

Cc
KayakingBob wrote:
Nice!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:29 am 
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Location: Kailua-Kona Hawaii
Chopcat,

Here are pictures of the brace. It is 1x1x 1/16 on the side spars and 1x1x1/8 for the bow sprint.
Image
I went overboard and used 1/4 plate just cause I like it strong. plus I could drill and tap holes if needed.
Image
I bolted it together with 1/4 20 bolts nuts and locktite. The length of the bowsprit was determined by the foot of the sail I chose which was 5'. I wanted the back of the sail to bee parallel to the main mast so I measured out 5' from the mast and added a few inches.
Image
I also wanted to have the brace back by the mast for strength and as a surface to mount hardware as needed. To facilitate that I decided to mount the brace on top of the Haka bar and use acorn nuts to make it a clean install. There is electrical tape wrapped around the Haka where the U bolt is to give it grip and avoid any damage to to the bar. I was able to find 3 1/2" U bolts and did not have to cut them to fit with the acorn nuts.
Image
Image
Image


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:39 pm 
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Location: Clearwater, Fl
Great job Kona !! Looking forward to more sailing reports as you tweak the design.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:40 pm 
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Wow, you are not going to bend that brace in a hurry.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:01 am 
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Many thanks K
that gives me another idea.
removable bowsprit as I have to store mine with a cover over it in the boat yard.
Image

Image

i have mended the welder so will have a go making it this weekend.

I think we now need to find a suitable figurehead


CC

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