Return to Hobie.com
Hobie Forums
It is currently Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:54 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1315 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82 ... 88  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:42 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:44 am
Posts: 132
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Nohuhu--thanks for the encouragement. I'll post AI 2 haka stuff here.

Can I please ask you about what you call the "wonka wonka"? That is, the looseness in the aka main hull cross bar joints. Apparently this is a non-issue for most?? I posted before about this when I had a TI a couple years ago, and just posted again a couple days ago but nobody is responding. I guess, apparently, people are not suffering failures from this--but then I wonder what kind of sailing they do in what kind of waters.

If I get wind where I live, I also tend to get shallow water chop that really throws the amas up and down going to windward. In six hours of that roughly in the last 3 weeks, I can see the abrasions on the knuckle inserts already. As you said in the thread a couple years ago, the rivets start to walk on the other side of the knuckle. I'm feeling like I'm going to use 5200 and cement the inserts into the cross bar at least before I put more weight (like a haka bench) on the akas. 5200 has a bit more flex than epoxy and is tough as nails, as you probably know.

If I only sailed on flat water, or if I had mostly longer ocean waves (not short, steep stacked up chop)--I would not consider this much of an issue myself. Mostly I only have time to sail for performance fun--not trips or fishing etc. I don't feel that safe in a boat if I cannot make good to windward in a breeze and a chop. If I can't, it means just reach-reach back and forth. As a long time multihull sailor I know that looseness in cross arm joints was always something a surveyor would pick up and warn prospective buyers about. I crewed racing on an H16 long time ago which had been delivered unassembled from the factory so that the owner could epoxy it together.

Sorry if this is a little off topic, but I don't have an address to email you directly, and it does relate to what I do with the haka bench. Is hiking out on a haka in short steep bay chop going to windward in 15-18 knots of breeze going to keep the windward joints from flexing so much? Or is it going to throw my 200 lbs up and down and make the wear and tear in the loose joints just happen faster.

Yes maybe I'm a bit of a nervous nellie. I single handed an ocean racing tri in my life earlier and so my mindset is sort of "defense in depth" against failures. I also like rough weather cause that's when it goes fast.

These are great boats, please don't get me wrong. All boats are compromises. I get that the Island trimarans have to please a great range of users, and also fit in with Hobie's whole production line of related boats. Obviously, I would not have come back to an AI 2 if I didn't think it was the best choice--not to mention the priceless value of this forum


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:41 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 3068
Location: Kailua 96734
mikereddy wrote:
Nohuhu--thanks for the encouragement. I'll post AI 2 haka stuff here.

Can I please ask you about what you call the "wonka wonka"? That is, the looseness in the aka main hull cross bar joints. Apparently this is a non-issue for most??

Is hiking out on a haka in short steep bay chop going to windward in 15-18 knots of breeze going to keep the windward joints from flexing so much? Or is it going to throw my 200 lbs up and down and make the wear and tear in the loose joints just happen faster.
Yes, your weight together with the clamping qualities of the Hakas (or tramps) will keep your connections tight and reduce wobble. It will eliminate most of the boats lateral rocking as well.

Any looseness in the joints will eventually cause wear. On the old AI, this was a metal fatigue issue. The SS pins wore through the aluminum crossbar and the joint got looser and looser. Akas and Amas flopped around. Made quite a racket and instilled fear offshore. Loose bungies added to the fun.

However, tying them together with Hakas and sitting out there keeps things very quiet.

Fast forward to the new "knuckled" Aka inserts and we discovered a new problem. They are plastic and designed to flex, which is good, until they disconnect. Longer, heavier Amas may tend to flop more when they "fly". So in the name of safety, they should be tethered and double bungied to prevent this.

Again, Hakas help to tie the newer boats' wonky parts together and distribute the load along the frame. (Relax Mike, out on the water you will never put all of your 200 pounds on one metal or plastic joint anyway).

You already know about riding multi hulls and the many advantages of "hiking out" so I won't go into detail there.

Your gonna love it, and look way cooler on the Hakas. :mrgreen:

Please wear a leash while your out there.

_________________
The Wind Is Your Friend...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:06 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon May 18, 2015 2:49 am
Posts: 63
Location: Galway, Ireland (formerly CH)
Sorry this might be a bit off topic but can anyone provide a link (couldnt find it) on how to deal with the wear/loseness of aka joints, had my new AI15 out a dozen times and the akas are starting to move within the joint which looks very concerning.

_________________
_________________________________________________________
2015 Adventure Island
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-PHLN ... EKefepPXQ/
Blog: http://www.irishrockpoolaquarium.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:48 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 2866
Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=42667
...and follow the other links referred to in the discussion as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:20 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:44 am
Posts: 132
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Thanks, Nohuhu...

So I'll play the the haka bench first before doing anything in the direction of gluing aka/xbar joints.

I'm attracted to the idea of the haka's that still function as the amas fold--either by design as that one guy did do beautifully, or else just because, as somebody else said (you maybe) that you can do something similar just with shock cord. I don't know if it's possible, but in my world, which includes launch ramp docks and a yacht club dock--it would be really nice to be able to dock the boat temporarily with a folded ama, a couple fenders, and a platform (the haka) that people could use to get on and off.

The AI 2 has taken a 130 lb passenger in a seat strapped to the tramp really very nicely. AI 1 struggled with that...

Yes to the tether... :P

Anybody tried using the haka idea to sail these boats like a proa? Sit n the seat on one tack and on the haka on the other. It removes some weight and wetted surface drag...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:36 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 8:53 am
Posts: 717
Location: Paoli Pennsylvania - East Coast USA
mikereddy wrote:
Anybody tried using the haka idea to sail these boats like a proa? Sit n the seat on one tack and on the haka on the other. It removes some weight and wetted surface drag...
No plans for a haka, but as soon as I get the first tramp sewn up I will try my new AI in Outrigger Canoe mode.

Not so much for speed/wetted area because the windward ama seems to fly most of the time.

More for the enjoyment of playing the sail to fly the ama on proa tack without dumping it.

Give me a week or two....

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:56 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:44 am
Posts: 132
Location: Philadelphia, PA
I would love to hear how that works for you...

Even though the windward ama flies out of the water, there's still it's weight supported by the main hull and leaward ama... Minor probably, but still it's drag...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:12 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 8:53 am
Posts: 717
Location: Paoli Pennsylvania - East Coast USA
mikereddy wrote:
I would love to hear how that works for you...

Even though the windward ama flies out of the water, there's still it's weight supported by the main hull and leaward ama... Minor probably, but still it's drag...
Now that you have said it: aerodynamic drag. I have heard proa builders mention that they wish they had made the iakos/platform/ama with less wind resistance.

But I just enjoy the activity of playing the sheet so as not to tip over....

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:09 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:44 am
Posts: 132
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Right on the aero-drag as well... One of the reasons I'm not using the tramps except to take another person along on a quiet social sail, which the AI 2 does very nicely with it's big amas... Again I'm interested in your proa outcomes...

I'm building one crude haka bench for the port side at first as a learning tool. On that side I can test stuff out and not necessarily even have to have a tiller extension yet. Plus--that would be the way to try the proa thing--just lose the starboard akas and ama for a sail....

AI 2 offers a lot of interesting possibilities, though it is heavier and harder to pedal/paddle, and I can't yet figure out why the sail assumes such terribly wrinkled and twisted shapes when roller reefed only a turn or two. Wondering if the first, thickest batten needs to be tapered over the top third.... But shaving a circular batten evenly doesn't sound easy....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:34 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:44 am
Posts: 132
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Threw together an easily modified, screws only (no glue, no finish) four board wide haka bench for the AI 2 this weekend and tested it out a bit. Not knowing how much I would have to brace it, it built it in such a way that I could add bracing more or less as needed. After testing, I'm already going to change it. Here's pictures of the process, with short comments, and then I have questions for more experienced folks below them. Thanks for your help.

Image
The haka underside on the work table. 4 US nominal 1x4's (3.5x3/4"); US "furring strips" (1.5x3/4"); exterior high thread screws; adhesive backed rubber I got with an earlier TI cradle set. AI 2 akas rake forward about 4 degrees, and remain parallel to within less than a quarter inch all the way outboard


Image
Forward end, capturing both sides of the aka with a padded channel. Furring strips perfect width for that screwed wide way perpendicular to the deck boards. You can see the raised braces screwed through the cross pieces into the deck boards. 2 longwise braces were enough, but I could have used more if necessary (3, or 4).


Image
proving that the two braces are enough by standing on the haka with both ends blocked up.


Image
the after end of the bench showing the changes necessary to allow the aka brace to still be used. Although it sort of becomes redundant if you capture one or both akas in channels on the bench underside. So, not so much crash protection anymore in this arrangement. didn't bother to capture both sides of the rear aka. The extra padding is to I can slide the thing into place when mounting and not scratch the aka.

Image
the bench mounted. Weighs in at 16lbs. Don't want the final to be that heavy. No rounded corners yet. I like that the top surface remains clean of all fasteners. You can see my "boom crutch" that inserts into the dolly thru-holes and elevates the mast enough that the boat cover has sloped sides for easy rain runoff. Also visible--compass easily removable on top of hatch cover, and something called a "speedpuck" gps that gives speed and heading mounted forward. I push the button to change modes with my toe.


Image
shock cord method of securing the haka on the akas

I started with four boards because that is the width of a kayak seat I can rig for a passenger. But now I figure I'll rig a tramp for any passenger, since it's softer and we won't be out in too much wind or waves with a passenger anyway. But I see I don't need the fourth. So the whole thing is going in a table saw and get one board cut clean off--the outside one.

You folks that have done this for while--how do you get from the seat to the haka, especially when you've spaced it out way to the outboard end of the akas? The seat on the AI 2 is awesomely comfortable and adjustable. Love it. But it is harder I find to move around because: (1) if you put weight on the very front of the seat, it rotates up enough to dislodge from the bar, even with the leash hooked up in the back; (2) you can't fold the seat back down and put weight on that either, at least not some portion of my 200lbs; (3) the lines that hold the seatback at a whatever angle you want (again wonderfu), make it hard to moved sideways out of the seat. You have to scrunch forward and then shift yourself outboard.

I'm older now and don't have the strength in my long ago damaged knees to squat and duckwalk around the deck. So I'm probably going to keep the haka close, or else figure out a way to make it slide in and out while hiking as needed.

Anyway, how are you getting safely in wind and waves to those hakas I see pictures of that are just 3 boards attached all the way outboard? On the Ai 2, that aka is 42" out to where it bends vertical into the ama. That's a bit of a stretch to get your ass out on to it. Can anybody talk to me about that?

Also, what are the trade offs involved in fully capturing the akas, so that the crash protection is gone, or somehow leaving them free to rotate back if the plastic bolt breaks.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:35 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:44 am
Posts: 132
Location: Philadelphia, PA
How come you have to scroll to see the text?? I guess I should be putting carriage returns in to limit the line width??

Tried to go back and put them in but I guess i cannot edit it now, since I've posted again.

9/2--OH... I think it was because my last picture was too big...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:35 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:44 am
Posts: 132
Location: Philadelphia, PA
After testing my ability to get easily and quickly on and off of the bench from the AI 2 seat (being as I said, tall, with older not so great knees), I made the changes you see here. Still just a prototype, but one I'll sail with a few times.

Image

So the little "butt slider" is hinged and rests with padding on the gunwale of the main hull. I still want to be able to get a paddle into the water (between the haka and the main hull) because at least one launch I use involves shallow water for a 100 yds or so, where the full rudder down and pedals can't be used. That's why the butt slider is hinged, and to make the haka itself easier to carry folded. The haka bench itself rests on the aka against the casing of the knuckle on the inboard side of the aka. Sliced off the outer 4th board (see earlier post) because of weight and I don't seem to need it yet. Still supports my 200 lbs OK.

This little shelf allows me to get forward out of the AI 2 seat onto and off of the haka with one crabwalk hop and a small slide getting on and the reverse getting off. It's going to be a different, more problematic story on the starboard side, because of the centerboard handle and slot that sits right in that same position on the gunwale. You can see it in both pictures.

STILL want to know how people get on and off the narrow haka benches positioned way outboard on the akas. Anybody???


Image

shows the butt slider folded over for paddling or carrying. You can see the padding to protect the gunwale.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:29 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 2893
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Thanks for the detail Mike. I am about to build a very similar haka design.

I can't answer your question regarding getting from the hull seat to hakas or even tramps, as I weigh around 300#, have an artificial hip and scars from multiple spine ops, but I am building just one haka for an extra passenger or expedition storage space on my TI. I plan to set up a Hobie seat facing forward as a removable option.

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:22 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:44 am
Posts: 132
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Tony--that's a thought I never had before. I've been using an simple extra kayak seat roped to a tramp for a passenger. But I could probably build a 4 board haka that would be wide enough to mount the new luxurious Hobie seat on. That would be more inviting to the ladies I bet.... :wink:

300 lbs would need likely 4 of those longwise braces shown in my pictures, and the middle two would probably have to be screwed in through their wider section all the way into the surface boards. In US terms, 2.5 inch screws countersunk slightly, since you have 3 inches of wood (1.5 longwise brace; .75 cross brace; .75 surface board). I guess you have different specs for lumber where you are. I used reasonably clear white pine. You don't need hardwood...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:33 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 2866
Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
mikereddy wrote:
STILL want to know how people get on and off the narrow haka benches positioned way outboard on the akas. Anybody???


Mike,
I asked a similar question a while back when pics of haka were showing them positioned so far out.
I got the idea that they weren't being used for hiking out, but for storing gear.
If you want to hike out it is impractical to position them so far out. Aside from access difficulties the other issue is over correcting and submerging the windward ama, unless you are very light and in 25+ knot winds!
Where you have positioned yours works best for most conditions.
Nice haka BTW. 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1315 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82 ... 88  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
© Hobie Cat Company. All rights reserved.
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group