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 Post subject: Traditional tiller
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:39 am 
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Location: Muskoka, Ontario, CA
I would have loved to waited until I aquired a TI to bring this topic up but I'm curious. I've got an idea for a more traditional style tiller for the adventure island or the tandem island. All that would have to be done is an adapter plate attached to the rudder post and a couple of pillow blocks on the akas, then cut a couple of pieces of aluminum long enough so they stay engaged in the pillow blocks with back and forth movement and mount to the adapter plate. Any thoughts or questions?
Cheers
Adam
p.s. I thought about moving the rear pulley to a subframe behind the rudder and build a straight tiller with a pivot extension but thought maybe it would be over complicated.


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 Post subject: Re: Traditional tiller
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:41 am 
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I forgot to tell about the reason for this. Sit out on both sides of the amas as far out as you can. Hike out straps anyone? lol.
Cheers
Adam


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 Post subject: Re: Traditional tiller
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:17 pm 
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I'm not sure what the solution is, but I would have loved it if there was a tiller that worked well while out on the tramps. Lots of people have rigged something up that ties to the main tiller, but the thing that I like about your idea, is that it starts back at the rudder, instead of adding on a piece to the tiller. Sailing a more traditional sailboat gives you great feel as to what's happening with the rudder, the Island boats don't really have that. The steering works great while sitting in the seat, but when out on the tramps, you lose that feel, and ability to fine tune.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional tiller
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:24 am 
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Location: Muskoka, Ontario, CA
augaug wrote:
Sailing a more traditional sailboat gives you great feel as to what's happening with the rudder, the Island boats don't really have that.


That is the only thing that concerns me. Once we can sit out on the amas like a catamaran now a few other problems arise. Is the rudder big enough to handle the extra force? My thought is no, but it would have to be built to experiment. I can only assume that a new rudder would have to be built larger out of wood or comparable material. Also maybe a full keel made out of 1.5" or 2" angled aluminum might help instead of building a bigger rudder. My goal (once I own a TI), is to make it more of a sailboat once all rigged but easily converted back to a kayak.
Cheers
Adam


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 Post subject: Re: Traditional tiller
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:38 am 
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Location: Maui, Hawaii
The newest strait up/down rudders on the AI & TI should be plenty big enough. I'd start worrying about over stressing other parts connecting the boat together, like mast to hull and aka to hull attachment points which could need more beefing up.

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http://KayakingBob.com - - - - - Hobie Island Sailing since 2006 - - - - - 2011 & 2012 Hobie AIs and a 2012 TI


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 Post subject: Re: Traditional tiller
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:08 am 
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KayakingBob wrote:
The newest strait up/down rudders on the AI & TI should be plenty big enough. I'd start worrying about over stressing other parts connecting the boat together, like mast to hull and aka to hull attachment points which could need more beefing up.


I agree. Perhaps some aluminum plate inside and out for the mast to hull and like wise for the akas except make it large enough to join them together. I have never sailed one yet but does anyone now how efficient the sail is in high winds. The design looks like it would have a lot of washout.
Cheers
Adam


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 Post subject: Re: Traditional tiller
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:17 am 
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I used to take my AI out in high winds as often as possible. Often times it would just be me and the kite boarders.

I can't say how efficient or inefficient the sail is, but I think the bigger problem in high winds (for the AI, at least) was the weather helm. The boat would just spin towards the wind in large gusts. You had to find that sweet spot to keep yourself moving quickly in a straight line.

Boats like the Bravo, Wave, and Getaway have that long underwater keel that keeps things going straight. The AI, TI design doesn't have nearly as strong of an edge. Even with an ama in the water, it doesn't work in the same way. If the ama goes too far under water, you spin, and if the ama sits on top of the water (which is the goal when you're out on the tramps) you don't have a lot of keel in the water, just a small daggerboard, and a rudder.

As far as strengthening the rest of the boat, the hull, or where the mast attaches, I never had even a hint of a problem, and I almost never sailed the AI from the main seat, I was always leaning as far out on the tramp as possible when the wind was strong enough. I'd steer with my toes! I gained the appreciation of some decent sailors when they'd see me out in VERY strong winds, and then talk to me when I came in, and find out that I did all of that steering with my toes! I'm not saying it's the safest, but it's the only way to sail way out on the tramp without modifications.

But yeah, the weakest point isn't the sail, it's the fact that the hull won't track as straight in the big gusts. Enlarging the rudder might help, but then you stress the boat at the rudder pin area. The boat kind of is what it is. A great boat, that serves its intended function quite well. If you really want to hike out, or get more speed, then you might have to do what I did, and get a more traditional sailboat.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional tiller
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:14 pm 
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Location: Muskoka, Ontario, CA
augaug wrote:
But yeah, the weakest point isn't the sail, it's the fact that the hull won't track as straight in the big gusts. Enlarging the rudder might help, but then you stress the boat at the rudder pin area. The boat kind of is what it is. A great boat, that serves its intended function quite well. If you really want to hike out, or get more speed, then you might have to do what I did, and get a more traditional sailboat.


Hi,
Perhaps enlarging the centre board could help? Do you have to furl the sail with the high winds or leave it out? I would love to get a traditional sailboat but right now with a two year old and a wife who has never sailed buts wants to kayak, this seems to be the only option.
Cheers
Adam


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 Post subject: Re: Traditional tiller
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:19 pm 
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I was where you are a couple years ago! I didn't have a 2 year old, my kid is a bit younger, but I still hear ya. Our solution was to buy the Bravo because I liked sailing, and eventually we'll get a Oasis tandem Mirage kayak.

The thing that I found when sailing was that if you stayed on the centre seat, you had to furl the sail to get speed, but if you could get out on the trampolines, you'd level the boat out, pulling the opposite ama out of the water, or at least skimming the water, and be able to sail full sail in just about any condition.

I don't think that enlarging the centerboard is going to be enough. The centerboard acts like a pivot point when the winds get really really high. Keep in mind, I'm talking about BIG winds. On the average windy sailing day, you'll still have a blast being out on the tramps without modification.

I'm talking about taking the AI out in winds where no other sailboats can go out. As an example, even though my Bravo has a furling sail, I wouldn't go out on it when winds get as high as they did when I was still going out on my AI. The AI just doesn't tip (ok... it can... but it really doesn't) the Bravo is too much work, and becomes un-sailable in high winds, just as every other Hobie Cat would.

I still come back to what I said earlier. The boat is what it is, modifying it in one way to make it better usually has the effect of making it worse in another way. Creating some sort of tiller always interested me, but trying to mess with a rudder or centerboard starts getting away from what the boat really is, and what it's intended to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional tiller
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:08 am 
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Check this out:

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional tiller
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:03 am 
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Location: Maui, Hawaii
That rudder setup looks like it would require a lot of force to steer!

The original AI rudder (2007) was also hard to steer. After much discussion, some AI owners remounted the rudder blade 1 inch forward using only 4 of the 6 bolts and cut out the notch where the blade would have hit the hull. What a difference! Power steering! Just by moving the pivot point from 10% forward/90% aft to 20%/80% gave us the easy to steer rudder placement we all use today. Hobie then retooled the rudder mold and sent one free to every AI owners. Way to go Hobie!

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http://KayakingBob.com - - - - - Hobie Island Sailing since 2006 - - - - - 2011 & 2012 Hobie AIs and a 2012 TI


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 Post subject: Re: Traditional tiller
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:03 am 
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KayakingBob wrote:
That rudder setup looks like it would require a lot of force to steer!!


It might not be too bad because it has five feet or so of leverage, still, can't help to think that a bellcrank might be better at the first pivot rather than (what it appears to be), 1.5" dowel, although he may need to have it that far out so that the extension clears the stern with rudder movement, hmmmm... not sure what to think. Loving the retractable rudder extension.
Cheers
Adam


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