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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:27 am 
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Location: Clearwater, Fl
In my never ending quest to speed up the AI, I've spent way too much time researching and trying different techniques and sails. I recently had a sail made that I had hoped would be a spinnaker AND jib. Initial tests were not very promising and it was more like a spinnaker that did not work as a jib so I changed the system to allow me to change sails at sea with minimal effort. Then I made some breakthroughs with the new sail and got it to be effective upwind making it both a spinnaker and a jib. It took a lot of adjustments and experimentation but it will be worth it in the long run.

Another setback was a slight deformity or twisting towards the top of my mainsail due to the way I attached the main to the mast topper. It was too tight where the top of the mainsail needs to move slightly when unfurling. I changed that system somewhat to allow more flexibility.

So this video shows switching sails and also the new sail in spinnaker mode as well as jib mode. Points into the wind much better now.

Without a doubt this project has been a lot more challenging than I initially thought it would. Hopefully it will help this weekend while I go on a 60 mile run with my AI. Hope there's wind.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:37 am 
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Hey Jim,

Definitely looks like you are having fun. I'm going to be back in MIA on October 15. It is getting down to near freezing every night.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:23 pm 
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Location: Clearwater, Fl
Keith, I look forward to your return and more camping trips and sailing with you guys.

Below freezing ? ... :o

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:46 am 
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Final update:

I regret to say that I'm giving up.

To be honest, although these sails help in some conditions ... usually raging wind .. they can be more trouble than they are worth too. I still have multiple technical issues that are driving me to the brink of complete insanity. Mainsail twist at the top is one of my setbacks.

This weekend during a 60 mile run I couldn't keep up with a stock AI. The winds were pretty lame most of the time although once when they picked up I was able to point much better and for a short period had an advantage. But my jib or spinnaker shape in weaker winds is like a candy cane and I think it actually slows me down. So it very well could be my sails are inferior.

Plus there were two low bridges that we went through and I had to demast with all these extra lines and gizmos. That was a challenge with tangles and it put me farther behind.

Just wanted to put this out there because I've received several emails from other folks working on a jib system for their TI's and AI's. And I realized my videos and posts may have been a bit over enthusiastic so I want to set the record straight. Fusioneng seems to have a pretty good system but I just couldn't seem to replicate it.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:06 am 
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Location: Terrigal NSW, Australia
How about the Pacific Action sail Jim? Can you see it having a reasonable hassle to boost ratio?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:43 am 
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It works for downwind Chris, but you need hakas for it to be practical.

I plan to change my hakas to be half the weight and not as wide because my setup was getting too heavy. But yeah, they have some issues with rigging complexity too. I really haven't tested the PAS out much because the jib setup took my focus. They probably are more consistent in downwind assistance. I might try them again but not sure. For now they are packed away.

Constant adjustment of all the extra lines and strategies I feel deters from the experience and fun of sailing the AI so I may not even test the PAS and just put it on ebay.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:50 pm 
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Geez, Jim, sure too bad you couldn't get your system to work (& embarrass us unmercifully this Fall.)

I'm sure you have other interesting projects to keep your attention.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:11 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
CaptnChaos:
We should get together one of these days, I'm usually out sailing in Sarasota bay most every weekend (when I'm in town, unfortunately I travel way too much). I always launch from Ken Thompson park (next to Sarasota sailing squadron, and Mote Marine). I think the biggest factors that makes my system practical are, the rotating mast topper, the rotofurlers on all the sails, and the 2 ft bow sprit. I think another critical piece is the rear stay line to the back of the boat. As everyone know the mast cup on the TI is too weak to support additional sails in the fore and aft directions, also helps to keep the correct main sail shape.
Whatever the weather conditions I can in 2 seconds deploy or furl any of the sails as needed. The TI has the main sail mounted so far forward that when adding additional sails it's hard to get enough air into them. Your bow re-enforcement is very similar to mine, so it would be a simple matter to add a carbon rod to the end of yours, that you could mount your spinnaker and furler systems to.

The intent of my setup is better performance in the typical low winds in this area (<6mph). In those conditions my personal feeling is the TI is a little boring to sail. With just the mainsail your lucky to get a couple miles per hr (boring). Another side benefit of the jib is I can point way closer to the wind (almost straight into the wind if your willing to pedal a little), I know of no other boats that can do that.

My jib and spinnaker don't effect the performance of the mainsail. You can be sailing along at lets say 4-5mph, as soon as you unfurl the jib, your speed increases by 1-2 mph, I can also turn tighter into the wind, as soon as I furl the jib back in it goes back to normal.

When the winds are over 10-12mph the mainsail alone provides plenty of power. In those conditions the jib allows you to be able to show more sail, and tighter to the wind. So instead of going say 6mph at 45 deg to the wind, you can pull into 25-30 deg into the wind and maintain 7-8mph. But you have to keep it close to the wind, if you turn away from the wind you will go over if you don't furl the sails in some. At least in my circumstances sailing up wind in almost any conditions (even higher winds), seems to give me an edge over almost anything else I have sailed past, especially if your willing to pedal a little.
Downwind with the spinnaker, I can be sailing downwind in lets say 6mph winds with just the mainsail, and can get to around 2-3 mph. As soon as I unfurl the spinnaker my speed dramatically increases. It only takes a couple seconds to furl it in or out so I use it all the time now. My old setup was similar to yours where I kept the spinnaker in a turtle bag and had to hois it everytime i wanted to use it. As a result, I never bothered using it (too much of a pain). Plus when your trying to put that spinnaker up or down in winds 15 to 25 mph it is quite a handful and very dangerous (unless you have a furler). Running a downwind with the spinnaker in 20mph plus winds is the wildest ride you can possibly have on a TI. ( I live for that). Literally the TI flys, I have hit over 18-19 mph many times. I used to have hydrofoils under the boat to help lift it, but since adding the bow sprit, there is enough upward force from the spinnaker that I don't need the foils anymore. I use to call it nautilus mode, the bow would submerge underwater completely, and the boat would plow through the water submerged and wouldn't come back up ( a really wet ride LOL) and wouldn't come back up again until you either turned the foils on, or backed off on the sails ( I was never willing to back off).

Lets get together sometime.
Bob


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:49 pm 
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chrisj wrote:
How about the Pacific Action sail Jim? Can you see it having a reasonable hassle to boost ratio?


got my PA Sail coming next week - can't wait to try it out on the AI

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Location: Clearwater, Fl
You got me thinking Bob.

One big difference in your setup vs mine is you use rear stays where I opted to go with side stays after seeing some video of a TI / jib piloted by a Hobie VIP. But the difference there was their jib wasn't attached to the top of the mast on a rotating mast topper.

As I think this through, when I tighten the jib Haylard, the mast flexes slightly forward. Then when I unfurl the main, the kinks in the upper part of the mainsail appear. Sometimes worse depending on (I think) the amount of tension applied to the Haylard line. Another friend who is considering a jib on his AI mentioned the shape of my mast with the jib and recently suggested rear stay line. I wasn't sure then but that could very well be part of the problem. It would also add additional (needed) tension to the jib/spinnaker line.

The other suggestion you made was extending the bow with a carbon rod. What type of carbon rod would be strong enough? Are they tubes or solid and can they be drilled? Don't know much about them but I would have to make whatever bow extension to be detachable as I transport the AI in the back of a truck and it can't afford another 2 feet sticking back behind my truck.

So mounting the jib & spinnaker furler 2 feet forward on a bow sprint plus added tension to the jib line could solve the inefficient candy cane sail shape in light wind. Like you, I find sailing in light winds boring.

Thanks for the tips and yes, I would like to come to Sarasota and meet you and see your setup in person.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:11 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
CaptnChaos:
You can order 3/4 carbon fiber rod on line, it can easily be drilled, and tapped, as needed. Or you can do like I did and used a fiberglass pulltrusion. Just go to home depot get a replacement 36 in. Fiberglass ax handle (this one might work ( ROCKFORGE Premium 3-1/2 lb. Axe with 36 in. Fiberglass Handle
), then just pull the head off and strip the soft overmolded polypropylene off the outside. What you are left with is a fiberglass pulltrusion, they are extremely strong, you can put each end on bricks and stand on the middle and jump up and down all day, and it won't break. It can also be drilled and tapped, anyway you like.
I mounted a piece of 1/8" x 2" x 12" aluminum with the fiberglass rod screwed down to the top of my bow brace. The rod is 3 ft long, sticking out in front about 2 ft on the TI, I used eight 8/32 flathead screws to hold the fiberglass rod to the 2 inch aluminum (the fiberglass can be drilled and tapped easily).

I drilled two side holes in the rod, one on the end then the other about halfway back and attached a couple stainless anchor shackles
( Lehigh 750 lb. 1/4 in. Stainless-Steel Anchor Shackle ), I had to narrow the rod a little around where the shackles mount. The sails clip to these shackles.

If you want it removable, you can tap four 5/16 holes into the bow brace, then put four 5/16 stainless allen bolts with about 1/8 gap below the head. Then on the aluminum drill slotted holes into the 2 inch wide aluminum part of the bow sprit. To remove the bow sprit you just pull it forward and lift it off, to install it you just place it over the 4 bolts then slide it back, then either tighten one or two of them or just let the tension on the sail lines keep it in slots (thats what I would do).
The mast on the TI is very flexible, and needs to be able to flex to spill excess wind, so you can't use side stays (don't need them anyway). With a spinning mast topper like mine it's pretty simple to add the rear stay line (Hobies prototype jib design was a poor design, I wouldn't try to copy it). The rear stay line is extremely important because the mast holder cup is not designed to withstand forward and back stress (side stress is no problem). I would not add additional sails to the AI/TI without a rear stay line, especially if planning to launch a huge spinnaker and use it in 20mph plus winds, without the stay line you will either snap the mast or rip the mast holder from the bottom of the boat (that teeny 1/4 inch screw is exposed to thousands of lbs of force because of the extreme leverage).
Adding extra sail to a TI is definately worth it, especially in our area. I have way over 2000 miles on my sails and modifications now with no issues. I made all the sails and modifications back in spring/summer 2010 and have not
needed to change much (added the bow sprit, and removed the hydrofoils in 2011), I just go out every weekend and use the heck out of the stuff. Even though I published on the forum at the request of several members about how everything was designed and made in great detail (including the engineering side of it), I know of no other TI's out there with anything close to what I have. In all I think I spent a couple hundred bucks for everything excluding the cost of my $500 dollar gas motor. I guess I just don't get it.


I'm in Boston area working this week ( I travel way too much) so I'm not sure of the weekend plans at home this weekend, but I want to go sailing weather permitting (had to work last weekend so I'm jones'ing to go out).


I will PM my phone number to you, so we can maybe plan an outing.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:30 am 
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Had a nice day on the water sailing with Bob (FusionEng) on Sarasota Bay this weekend.

Really enjoyed seeing up close and in person how he was able to get his spinnaker and jib to work. I got a kick out of sailing a TI (first time) ... especially with jib and spinnaker. Came away with potential solutions to fix the problems that have been plaguing me.

Thanks Bob - it was nice meeting you


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:04 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Jim:
It was a fun day for me also, except there was virtually no wind all day. But then again a perfect day to show why I rigged the boat the way I did. In Sarasota the winds are typically under 5-6 mph, and when sailing (or trying to sail) with just the main deployed it get a little boring on a TI (1-2mph headway is about it, unless you want to pedal all day, and bake in the hot sun). As you saw with the massive sails I can get 1 to 1 with the the wind on all points in low wind conditions. I especially like the ability to sail upwind almost directly into the wind with the jib. If you don't mind pedaling a little you can get within 5 points of the wind. I think we had one leg (when the wind picked up a little) where the wind was around 5mph heading into the wind we were able sail about 10 points off the wind at around 4-5 mph, which isn't bad especially with that bad worn out jib. You will be happy to hear I spent all day repairing my jib yesterday (removing the stretched out excess material). That jib keeps getting smaller and smaller, I think I'm under 30 sq ft now, I'll never use rip stop nylon on a jib again, it just keeps on stretching out. I have to admit though that particular sail probably has 2500 sailing miles (and it looks like it does (pretty ratty)), one of these days I will make a better one (using Dacron this time).

If I get a chance, I'm going to cut some of the puffy center out of my G2 spinnaker to see if I can get it to work little better on a reach, if you remember anytime we got close to 90 deg off the wind it lost most of it's power, and collapses quite often. Currently it works best downwind from about 115 to arounf 225 degrees, then looses power and luffs more as get closer to 90 degrees off the wind. Though one of the guys on the forum was telling me the screachers are great in a reach but not so hot on downwind, I might elect to leave the spinnaker alone, and instead make a new jib that can double as a screacher (155 genoa, like we saw on that big boat), then just furl it in some when I don't need it all (really liked your idea on that).
It's too bad we didn't have any wind, there is nothing in this world more exciting than doing a really fast downwind run with the spinnaker, and all sails deployed, the boat literally flies through the water. Many days I go out and tack up wind for 2-3 hours just so I can do a 15 minute downwind run to get back to where I started.
Actually you got me thinking, I think I'm going to put my hydrofoils back onto this boat, then add a barber hauler to my mainsail. If I can deploy the main to the left side, then the spin to the right on a downwind run (like a bat wing setup, with curved the main accelerating some of the air), I might be able to get even more speed (the boat tops out around 20 mph currently), if I can get the bow to lift out of the water with the foils, if not I'll be doing a pitchpole just like you did LOL.
It was a fun day for me also, Hope we can get together again sometime. I would really like to see your AI all rigged out.
I had a fun day, and it was really nice meeting you also.
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:43 am 
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hi everybody here...
I would like to know if any improvements on Ti Ai asymetric spinaker and jib as we are thinking to do a similar way in our ti´s...many thanks

Seahawk Ti
ABISAL12.COM CLUB


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