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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:22 pm 
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Sorry I didn't reply sooner, but as I do not have a jib, I missed your last question. The black cap in the masthead should definitely NOT spin in the mast, as this screws up sail shape as you mentioned. The top of the sail should bear a fixed relationship with the bottom which is attached to the furling drum by the downhaul.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:43 am 
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Thanks! I actually gave Hobie a call and asked what type of epoxy to use and they didn't think that it was glued at all. Said there was some type of O-ring. I told them mine didn't have an O-Ring and he stated that perhaps they switched from gluing to the O-ring, or switched from the O-ring to gluing. What year rig do you have Tony? Mine is an '11.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:39 pm 
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Dm06:
I believe the little cap on top if my mast has also spun out of alignment, last time I was out I noticed it. I had that cap off on my old 2011 TI, it was just a press fit into the top of the mast. I haven't looked at my 2012 yet so I don't know how it's held on. Since the masts are carbon I don't recomend pitting a screw in (this creates a stress point in the carbon, though it a pretty low stress area I think locktite marine epoxy is what I will be using to repair mine, follows by a loop of tape around the diameter. Don't use 5 minute epoxy, it doesn't hold up at all in water (even says so on the package).

I read about your rear stay line, I don't think you need that heavy a line. I just use 3/16 stretchy nylon rope for my rear stay line. At the base of your mast holder the only thing preventing your mast from breaking is a tiny 1/4 inch stud ( I'm talking forward and back motion of the mast). When you add extra sails you need to relieve some of that extra forward stress so as not to break that little stud ( I have snapped several without a stay line). The rear stay does nothing else, it only does anything at all on a downwind, mine is limp and loose on all other points of sail. Of course I was flying a jib plus my huge spinnaker (265 sq ft of sail), that's a lot of sail area, how important it is with just a jib I'm not sure.
I have only snapped one rear stay line in 4 1/2 yrs, and was just being stupid trying to run downwind in gusty conditions, the winds were about 23mph plus gusting to 35, I was doing over 20 mph when a wierd gust hit and fluttered the spin, when it popped back out it dove the boat and snapped the rear stay line. The mast topper popped out and landed I front of the boat, I then ran over the spinnaker (pretty embarrassing). I don't put the spin out anymore in winds that high, just too dangerous. Actually since getting my wing jib I hardly ever take the spinnaker along anymore, though I have to admit flying a giant spinnaker is an adrenalin rush like no other. If I know the winds are going to be good I definitely take it along, just for the fun of it.
I'm not using a collapsible jib (that you would store in a sail bag, though I used to all the time), all my sails are on masts with roto furlers, I prefer it that way so I can furl any sail in and out as conditions change without needing to leave the cockpit. Hey if you can get the jib to work by any means that's a plus.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:11 am 
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DM06 wrote:
Thanks! I actually gave Hobie a call and asked what type of epoxy to use and they didn't think that it was glued at all. Said there was some type of O-ring. I told them mine didn't have an O-Ring and he stated that perhaps they switched from gluing to the O-ring, or switched from the O-ring to gluing. What year rig do you have Tony? Mine is an '11.

Mine is an MY12. I have never removed the fitting, as I added a short piece of PVC pipe connector as part of my wind indicator installation (as well as adding a small pulley for a halyard to allow me to send up a masthead 360 degree white light). So I don't know if there is an O ring or not. Mine is fixed with 2 screws, but I do remember it didn't move before..
Image

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:45 am 
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Thanks folks. This project is turning out to be like watching the X Files. Every episode just adds more questions!

Fusion, regarding the foresail: it seems to me regardless of how you add a foresail it's going to act as a forstay, restricting rearward bend in the mast. It's attached to the mast topper and the bow, whether it's a furling sail or a hanked sail. How did you decide how loose/tight to make it?

I gave up looking for new hanks and decided to make my own. I "borrowed" a length of my sons hotwheels track. It's made of very flexible plastic. I cut 1"x 2" strips out of the track, drilled holes on either end, and fastened them through the existing holes in the jib using stainless machine screws and washers. I'm going to throw on some fender washers to keep the hanks from tearing at the holes.

Image

I could probably go back to the PVC furling idea NOHUHU pictured now.

Regarding both stays: I have stainless clips on both ends of each line that is rated at 90 lbs working load, according to the packaging. Is that enough? Or should I get something with a higher working load?

Spinnaker: how do you have that attached and how do you have it rigged? Seems like there is a lot of talk and information in your thread about jibs but not so much about spinnakers. Wouldn't you need 3 or 4 lines for a spinnaker?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:37 pm 
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So I was able to rig this thing on a PVC pipe and get er furling. Took it out with winds at around 10kts. Had a lot of issues with the furling system and the fact that I borrowed the sheet rigging (and the jib itself) from my Nacra 5.0.

Ended up being pushed across the little cove I launched at and eventually grounded it on the other side. The actual grounding was due to the furler getting stuck with the sail out but this is what I noticed:

This jib is way too big, as most figured it would be. But even reefed it seemed like all it wanted to do was overpower my rudder and push the bow downwind.

I found that the wind pushed the sail such that it would rotate the mast topper to the point that the rear of the topper would almost be pointing 90 degrees port or starboard. When this happened the sail shape and position were just way wrong, resulting in more of the above behavior.

In addition the bowsprit was bowing something crazy. It's made of pretty thick aluminum. I was suprised.

I know that I can square away the furler so that it is reliable. I guess I can try adjusting the rear stay tension so that the mast topper can't wind vane like it did.

I suppose I can try adjusting the top of the jib closer to the mast as well although I adjusted it out because the main sail was fowling on the jib uphaul...

But man, I must have forgotten what real sailing was like ever since having only one sail and a mirage drive. Mirage drive be damned, that boat was going wherever it wanted.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:46 pm 
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Dm06:
On my first jib which was 40 sq ft (this was long before any wing sails) I discovered that the jib was too big and I had a similar problem with not being able to correct enough with the rudder especially on a reach. I ended up cutting the jib down to 30 sq ft and the problem went away. However even with the 30 sq ft jib on a reach I would have to furl it in some in any thing over 12 mph winds.
As far as the jib Halyard line fouling on the main, I had to cut the battons on my main a little shorter so the clips don't stick out so far. I also hung some 3/8 dia PVC tubing (water pipe) from the mast topper for my halyard line to run thru (this stops it from fouling on the main when furling the main).
I wouldn't cut back on the jib just yet, you will need that extra sail area in low winds. Just make sure your furler works well and never show the whole jib on a reach (just run it furled in about halfway, that's what I would do and it worked fine. We will just call your jib a genoa instead (lol)
Keep in mind the jib is to greatly increase both your upwind and downwind performance but only helps marginally on a reach (the worst point of sail on my boat is a 90 degree reach). But as a side benefit you should be able to point much higher to the wind now, I'm guessing you will easily be able to sail 25-30 degrees off the wind now (I can sail less than ten degrees off the wind with the wing jib).
I have my jib pulley about 3 inches in front of my main sail at the top with the mast topper. When on a reach because the main mast is so flexible, my mast topper also rotates some but nowhere close to 90 degrees (mostly only on a 90 deg reach only).
Get your furler fixed, it needs to be reliable because you will be using it a lot. You can only show as much jib as the conditions allow.
Hope this helps
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:53 pm 
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DM,

Toppers belong on mattresses, not Hobies. ;-) You don't see them on real sailboats. The rotation of the topper is one of the things that has always concerned me about the current flock of designs.

I guess we are stuck with them, but our flexible/boomless/furling masts really make it a challenge to line things up. Fusion, Chaos, DM and others know this by now, so allow me to generalize.

If the jib halyard twists far out to the side (out of synch with the main) we get sloppy upwind handling and can't control the "slot" opening that is critical for funneling wind over the back of the mainsail. For downwinding, it may be great though.

To work well, the jib really begins with a complimentary size, cut and angle to the mainsail. Normally, it would move slightly WITH the mainsail via a fixed connection, such as a mast tang. But our topper rigs need a perfect balance of backstay rigidity and stretch, to accommodate the considerable natural movement of the TI mast. And God forbid we should limit the rotation of the furling mast.

My thinking cap tells me that he shorter you can keep the topper arms, the better, with the front one being VERY short to control twist. The rear stay, I would guess, should be under resting slight tension with the ability to stretch. If that's a problem, maybe a double side stay would help with the halyard rotation. (Think a 3 armed sprinkler head, made of aluminum).
Image

An adjustable bowsprit, similar to Chopcat's might accommodate different jibs in different conditions, and maybe a spinnaker.

I keep looking at the TI3 and thinking, an AI jib would be an easier design project, or maybe just a downwind sail.

My hat's off to you jib pioneers. Hope Hobie eventually gives you some engineering support for your worthy goals.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:44 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
NOHUHU:
Actually I think you just stumbled on something that will help me. My rear stay line has always been stretchy 3/16 or 1/4 inch nylon line that can stretch to suit conditions, but there is a limit to how much it can stretch, with the result being when on a reach the rear stay line is always loose, which in turn allows the mast topper to spin about 20 degrees off of straight (you can see it loose in the videos below). I tried double rear stay lines, and also side stays about 4 yrs ago and the results were dismal, (basically destroyed the main sails ability to flex and shape itself as designed).
However until you just described it, I never thought about how to solve the problem of the loose rear stay line. What I'm going to do is use my existing 3/16 stretchy nylon line, but I will put a section of bungy into the line (tied between two knots similar to the way the rudder up/down lines operate), it will be up at the top near my jolly roger.
You are correct the jib kind of needs to be mounted very close to the main at the very top (mine is around 3-4 inches in front of the main). My spinnaker is mounted about a foot in front of the main (I have two separate halyards one for the jib and one for the spin), I still have the spinnaker, but to be honest I hardly use it anymore (spinnakers can never go faster than the wind).

One important aspect of both the jib and the spin is they both need to be pushed out forward beyond the front of the bow via the bowsprit, this does two things, first it allows you to get air in between the sails (otherwise they are all too close together), the second and most important aspect is the angle of the jib and spinnaker creates quite a bit of lift to the bow to prevent the bow from diving.
If you watch my sails in these two videos, you will see the way my rear stay line sags when the mast flexes back (the above fix will cure that). Keep in mind I'm out there 99% of the time in 5-7mph winds, and 90% of the time I'm sailing almost straight into the wind (between 10 and 20 degrees off the wind), I often sail 1.5 to 2x windspeed upwind. This is specifically what my boat is rigged to do, actually my performance actually sucks on a reach (best I can do is 1x to 1.2x windspeed on a reach, admittedly the worst point of sail on my boat).

Of course if I ever get into wind over 10 mph I just tilt the motors up and sail like normal. Obviously I'm a huge fan of wing sails.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO1uuzBLBec
[youtube2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO1uuzBLBec[/youtube2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjJ-9rvDOi8
[youtube2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjJ-9rvDOi8[/youtube2]

Bob


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:36 am 
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DM06:
I go into quite a bit of detail on page 4 of the ultimate Tandem Island thread ( viewtopic.php?f=69&t=33720&start=45 ) about the spinnaker.

Here are a few pics taken in summer 2011 of my rigging for the spinnaker.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

The Spinnaker is an Asymmetric spinnaker (G2 type (around 135 sq ft)) the control line is one continuous loop of rope that hooks to the clue, then around pulleys on the outside of the rear AKA bars, then thru the passenger compartment, to switch from one tack to the other I can either furl the spin up then re-deploy on the other tack (usually what I do), or I can pull the spinnaker over the front of itself to get to the other tack (the rope is a continuous loop wrapped around the front).
I believe the jib in the pics was somewhere between 30 and 35 sq ft (I was continuously adjusting it's size back then). I didn't spend much money on fancy furlers ( obviously), I just made up PVC furlers for everything (they cost about a buck to make), they actually worked quite reliably believe it or not. I had 5 harkin cleats on the front AKA cross bar that controlled everything. I had the spin mounted far enough forward so it was about 2 ft in front of the front bow cleat. I experimented quite a bit positioning the jib so it would have the right amount of lift to raise the bow out of the water. I always just left all the rigging lines hook to the boat all the time, and just laid all the sails down (dropping the halyards) to drop the fore sails. The spinnaker halyard line actually ran to the back of the boat and doubled as the rear stay line.
I made all this crap in the spring/summer of 2010, and pretty much all of it is still on the boat now (it all looks pretty beat up now), I know for a fact I have way over 6000 sailing miles on all of it ( I'm out there every single weekend all year round). I sailed with the rigging you see for over 3 yrs as shown until I got into the wing sail crap maybe a yr and a half ago. Since then I hardly use the spinnaker anymore because with a spinnaker you can never sail faster than the wind it's like a parachute and only for downwind, and only works downwind. Since the boat is faster than the wind now in low winds, I hardly ever use the spinnaker anymore except down in Key West where we have good trade winds, so I still use it down there. If you look at more recent videos, you will recognize all the same crap on the boat like the jib mast on my wing sail is the same one used in these pics (and old telescoping aluminum painters pole), pretty much the whole works cost around $200 bucks to make in my garage over a few weekends, anymore I just use the stuff, and don't think about it much. It all works great for me and fulfills all my own needs, I was asked to share some of my stuff on the forum so I did (apparently they thought it was cool LOL)). I don't recommend anyone follow my designs, it's always best to figure this kind of stuff out yourself, then come up with a solution that fits your own needs, this happens to fit mine, if it helps anyone along the way great.
One reason I like my wing sail crap is there is only one single 1/8" control line that controls the wing jib completely, eliminating all the additional sails and control lines. When you want to use the wing you just gently tug on the control line, to not use the wing jib you simply let it go and let the wing weathervane (no drag or lift when in neutral). Plus it out performs by quite a large factor all the previous sail rigs that I used before. I don't really have any plans to change anything else, I'm just going to use what I have for a while. Note: I was extremely lucky that the wing jib worked on the first try, and continues to work without issues, the designs for any of this stuff is all uber simple and anyone can build a wing jib for under $150 bucks themselves and a couple weekends in their garage and a decent sewing machine ( I used my wifes sewing machine while she was at work, so she is none the wiser (shhhhh)). Or build any of the other stuff I've shown in a couple week ends, costing almost nothing to build unless you want to get fancy.
Hope this helps
Bob


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