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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:36 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:19 pm
Posts: 72
Location: Jackson Hole, Wyoming
Howdy!

My GF and I are planning a 4 day trip on Lake Powell this fall.

Since it's a water supply, very stringent rules are in place about not pooping anywhere on the ground during the trip. It's mandatory to have a hard sided container to store the stuff. The only stuff I've seen manufactured for this purpose is HUGE, made for rafting and boating. Too big for kayaks.

I'm intrigued by bag systems which have a chemical gel that "neutralizes" waste; any comments on what works?

Please tell me about kayak friendly ways to deal with this crappy situation!

Happy Trails!

Chris

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And in the end,
the love you take,
is equal to the love,
you make...
--The Beatles


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:04 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:39 pm
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Location: Venice, Florida
Take a 5 gallon bucket (with lid), put a toilet seat on it, tow it behind in an innertube, and you'll have all the comforts of home. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: One Word
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:06 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:00 pm
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Kaopectate


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:07 am
Posts: 598
Location: Punta Gorda, FL
http://www.thepett.com/

I haven't tried them, but the idea sounds good. Sort of. My dad said, "Why bag it? It'll never sell!" ;)


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 Post subject: Poopie
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:51 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 8:54 am
Posts: 61
Location: Albuquerque
OK enough...
The WAG bag systems work very well...They are used now on a lot on the main mountains of the Pacific Northwest...I use them by themselves for the "solid" waste and always pack them out. Most boaters will store urine in a bottle till out on the main body of water then release to dilute. Alternatively it's the old tried and true direct in the pool...as for H2O supply...each community has pretreatment of water and intense clorination...your urine is the least problem they have...

The WAGâ„¢bag kit (Waste Alleviation & Gelling)


Each WAGâ„¢ bag kit contains an outer zip-close disposal bag, waste bag preloaded with Pooh-Powderâ„¢, toilet paper and a hand sanitizer
Double-Bag System is made from a puncture resistant material
Our non-toxic Pooh-Powderâ„¢ gels waste, removes odors (no perfumes), and begins the decay process. Spill proof and Hygienic
WAGâ„¢ bag kits are degradable and are approved for disposal in any garbage can.
Can be used in standard toilet when water or power is off.


The WAG™ bag kits can be used with the PETT® (Portable Environmental Toilet) or by themselves while hiking, backpacking, rock climbing, kayaking, or in an emergency. These kits are sold in 12 packs or 100 packs.


Methods of use vary....

A few words regarding health and sanitation. As you might imagine, 12,000 climbers make a staggering environmental impact on the mountain. Therefore, all climbers are required to do their part to keep conditions sanitary. "Blue bags" for human waste disposal are available at ranger stations and high camps. These bags contain one clear bag and one blue bag, along with twist ties. To correctly use the bag for waste disposal where toilet facilities are not available, defecate on the snow away from the climbing route. Collect your feces by using the blue bag like a glove. Then, turn the blue bag inside out and secure it with a twist tie. These bags are to be deposited in collection barrels provided at Camp Muir. DO NOT dispose of blue bags by dropping them in crevasses or trashcans! The "blue bag" system is also being used on Mt. Hood. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the sad results of ignoring this sanitary protocol. Due to the aforementioned sanitary problem, it is extremely important that you adequately boil and/or treat your melted snow water to avoid contracting Giardia, that really nasty intestinal malady associated with drinking feces-infected fluids. Ignore this purification warning and suffer the consequences in about seven days (holidays included)!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:38 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:19 pm
Posts: 72
Location: Jackson Hole, Wyoming
Ranger 1--

Your reply is appreciated. I've only read about the WAG bags on internet. Sounds nifty.

I suspect they're being used by climbers here in the Tetons (waste management is now required in the most intensely used areas).

My next question is how to store the WAG bags. Lake Powell regs demand they be stored in a "hard sided container". The site for the NPS area says vaguely this can be a number of different containers, commercial and homemade... They give no further details.

Knowing there are no kayak friendly commercially made hard sided containers to store WAG bags... My next question is... What kinda NPS "approved" things out there can be jury rigged up to hold waste on top of the front AI hatch? It would be nice to buy something outta KMart or a local store that fits the bill for kayaks. Alternatively, perhaps a huge pvc pipe with screw on thread ends might also work (but I don't know what diameter would work with the WAG bags; I'm fishing for suggestions).

ALSO, the WAG bags supposedly can be used by simply squatting over them, instead of using a bulky $180 collar compact "toilet" seat. How easy is it to hit the target?

Ranger 1, do you (or eves droppers) have any suggestions to this crappy problem? We're probably cutting edge here. Increased back country use in wild areas will demand more and more WAG bag use.

Happy Trials!

Chris

_________________
And in the end,
the love you take,
is equal to the love,
you make...
--The Beatles


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:19 pm
Posts: 72
Location: Jackson Hole, Wyoming
Howdy!

Ranger 1, you were right in your discussion about urine being fairly nontoxic.

As I recall, Lake Powell regs only demand solid waste be carted out (altho the Wag bags purport to handle pee as well).

Current Yellowstone recommendations for peeing in the back country are to do it on a hard surface (ie big rock, if you can find it). This is to keep critters from digging into soil to get salt and minerals. You don't want grizzleys seeking salt 20 feet from your tent. (Of course, finding an impermiable surface poses geographic challenges which may be impossible).

It appears urine is fairly benign of pathogens in the eternal scheme of things.

I have no problem peeing far away from water on a hard surface. It's the poop I'm pursuing.

Thanks for your help in this crappy situation. Thankx to Hobie and Matt for providing a relevant forum topic, which is still crucial to responsibly enjoying our AI's.

Happy Trails!

Chris

_________________
And in the end,
the love you take,
is equal to the love,
you make...
--The Beatles


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 Post subject: Hard Surfaced Container.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:15 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 8:54 am
Posts: 61
Location: Albuquerque
Semantics is an awful thing...

Consider...the kayak is a vessel with "containers" ... so bags inside would be inside a hard container...

otherwise.

Thin wall PVC pipe would work I guess....
For mountaineering we just multi bag it. My guess is you can use a sacrificial "dry sack" for this purpose for ever and ever..

come to think of it....did I put the MRE's in that same bag I used on Rainier the other year? oh poop!


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 Post subject: kayaking and pooping
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:11 am
Posts: 51
Location: Slippery Rock, PA
I found this thread that might be of interest/help http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Trips ... /read/1134 and then I also found this one http://www.seakayak.ws/kayak/kayak.nsf/ ... 0A005623C4
Regardless it will be a great trip. We were at Lake Powell kayaking a few years ago and it was great!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:43 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:19 pm
Posts: 72
Location: Jackson Hole, Wyoming
Howdy!

Thankx to all for their interest and help in my crappy dilemma.

Here's a portable toilet seat setup, very diminuative, but you'd still need a hard sided storage container. The "green" bags which decompose within 24 hours might cause problems with RV septic systems: http://www.ultralightwildernesstoilet.c ... ight-demo/

My favorite method at this time is:
http://www.seakayak.ws/kayak/kayak.nsf/ ... 0A005623C4

The materiels are cheap:
1. 3" PVC tube cut to any length
- longer for extended trips or group use
- shorter for individual use (each kayaker/canoeist may want to carry their own to avoid dealing with a group)
- to fit storage location such as behind kayak seat
2. End cap adapter (2)
3. End cap
4. End cap with hose attachment threads for cleaning

Use Bloo or an RV toilet additive to eliminate odor. Use flushable toilet wipes spread out on the ground to crap on. Wrap up and throw into the open end of the tube.

Big wall rock climbers have been using this system for years.

Happy Trailz!

Chris

_________________
And in the end,
the love you take,
is equal to the love,
you make...
--The Beatles


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:22 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 8:54 am
Posts: 61
Location: Albuquerque
Where are you thinking of doing this fall trip? I have one planned for Lake Powell the early part of October.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:33 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:30 am
Posts: 85
Location: Sedona/Scottsdale, AZ
Kitty litter in a plastic coffee can w/sealing lid should work.

JacksonHoleWyoming,
How was your trip on Powell?

Ranger1,
I'm in the preliminary planning for next Summer. Have you done your's yet?

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SedonaAI


'08 Revolution (SOLD!)
'07 Adventure Island
'07 Adventure Island

Psalm 107:23, 24 (KJV)
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD, and his wonders in the deep.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:14 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 8:54 am
Posts: 61
Location: Albuquerque
To Sedona AI

Yes I have now done three trips to Lake Powell.
The 2008 one was a bit of an expedition going from Clay Hills Crossing on the San Juan River going and lining two small II's and one 3' drop, then portaging Fatt Falls (14' high)
going on to the lake beginning midway on Zahn's Bay. The trip from there went all the way to Halls Crossing as the takeout ....two glorious weeks of not having to hear
about the two corporate scheming candidates presented to us by the oligarchs. If the (censored) really hits the fan next year (I'm a pessimist that the system is being artificially manipulated to another fall in the markets.

As to the poop issue....I made the ABS plastic tube and used a enzyme break down tab that went into the container with a bit of water. Poop added stayed loose enough to "drain out" at the convieniently located floating pumpout at mouth of Escalante arm.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:38 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:19 pm
Posts: 72
Location: Jackson Hole, Wyoming
Kitty litter in a coffee can wouldn't work. Too small a volume and not tuff enuff to get knocked around.

The two of us were out 5 days and filled up two 18 inch plastic drain pipes with sealed ends (pooping on baby handiwipes). Just had barely enuff capacity. Shoulda brought 3 of them.

The RV enzyme stuff does a great job of keeping things from smelling vile.

Emptying the pipes was not easy. I started using the indoor toilet, but quit because it was impossible to splash outside the bowl. Yucch. I ended up emptying them into a ground level cutout drain outside our house. A trip to the hardware store yielded a plastic fitting with functioned as a funnel.

Keep water running from inside the house and have a hose handy outside to "flush" things along.

A few last things about sailing on Lake Powell... Either it's completely placid or getting ready to blow like hell. The wind funnels up the canyon, so either it's pushing you along briskly or you're doing a lot of tacks to get anywhere. On one narrow stretch, we were doing 10 tacks per mile with 8 miles to go. After 6 miles of this, we were ever so grateful to have it stop howling the last 2. Needless to say, it's wise to monitor the weather channel.

Happy Trails!

Chris

_________________
And in the end,
the love you take,
is equal to the love,
you make...
--The Beatles


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