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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:52 pm 
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Location: Ettalong Beach, Central Coast, Australia
Pirate wrote:
Geoff all your rudder holes may be the 'perfect fit 8mm holes', but if you measure the pin you will find them tp be 7.6 mm if they are the same as we get here, so your holes may be consistant, but still too large for the provided pin. That slack will allow vibration and possibly resonation leading to failure IMHO....Pirate


Considering that my last pin was removed by me because of squeaking, I can't see there is excessive tolerance. Squeaking indicates something rubbing excessively. I accept there is some play, when holding the rudder assembly and trying to wiggle it. But there has to be some play. The issue is whether you feel yourself better qualified than Hobie to specify tolerances. Time will tell I guess.

Geoff.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:00 am 
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Geoff wrote:
Pirate wrote:
Geoff all your rudder holes may be the 'perfect fit 8mm holes', but if you measure the pin you will find them tp be 7.6 mm if they are the same as we get here, so your holes may be consistant, but still too large for the provided pin. That slack will allow vibration and possibly resonation leading to failure IMHO....Pirate


Considering that my last pin was removed by me because of squeaking, I can't see there is excessive tolerance. Squeaking indicates something rubbing excessively. I accept there is some play, when holding the rudder assembly and trying to wiggle it. But there has to be some play. The issue is whether you feel yourself better qualified than Hobie to specify tolerances. Time will tell I guess.

Geoff.


What I am saying Geoff is that the tolerances for my boat are excessive, so is Mickey's which is similar to mine with visible vibration of the blade when propelled through the water. You have also measured yours as different to mine which may bring in quality control as an issue to consider as some boats' pins break regularly whilst others don't.
Any vibration will cause stresses on the lower portion of the 'hinge' which is where they are breaking.
Incidentally a squeak is just as likely to indicate inproper alignment as it is to indicate too tight in the holes which I don't understand given there is .04 of a mm clearance.
I am not saying I am better qualified than Hobie Geoff but I do question if they have been keeping their eye off the ball until just now when it has become a hot topic. Frankly until consumer pressure is applied it was probably a low priority to devote Company resources as the purchase of a new pin for which they have a captive market was their preferred solution....Pirate


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:08 am 
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Location: Clearwater, Fl
Great trip report Keith and Quickster. Some day ... when I can get some time away from work or retire ... I hope to join you guys on one of those trips. They sound like a lot of fun and that area sound perfect for an AI trip. The pictures are beautiful.

I was out AI'ing with a friend last weekend and his AI snapped a rudder pin. I pulled up to his broken rudder in my AI and did an at sea replacement of his pin (we both pulled in our amas on one side). The seas were pretty choppy but I was able to use one of my spare pins to fix his rudder in only a few minutes.

My AI's rudder pin is about a year and a half old but I don't think I'm going to replace it just yet because I thought I read something here that some rudder pins are softer than others and as my dad used to tell me ... if it ain't broke don't fix it. I also try to sail with as little pressure on the rudder as possible by playing with the daggerboard angle / reefing / and using pedals as an additional daggerboard. Anything I try to do to keep the pressure off the rudder which can increases speed w/ less drag.

Thanks for posting your trip reports. I don't always respond because I haven't been on the forum much lately but I love reading your posts.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:46 am 
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Pirate wrote:
Frankly until consumer pressure is applied it was probably a low priority to devote Company resources as the purchase of a new pin for which they have a captive market was their preferred solution....Pirate


That is simply not the case Pirate. We have changed the pins once already in this product due to our "listening" to consumer feedback. That was before you bought an Adventure Island I am pretty sure. What we have is an increasing volume of boats and users that are becoming more and more demanding of its performance.

It is unfair to keep saying that Hobie Cat had chosen to ignore this issue or any other that is brought up here. We do listen and we do respond with changes when warranted.

You started a thread about pins. I know you have certainly been following along and know where we stand on this. This issue is still under study... we need to fully understand the issue of variable failures reported before we jump to conclusions. This is not simple. The risk is more significant damage to the rudder housing or hull itself. There is a breaking point for most any product built. We just are trying to safely determine what that is. At the moment... it is the pin, as it is designed to do.

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Last edited by mmiller on Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:34 pm 
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mmiller wrote:
Pirate wrote:
Frankly until consumer pressure is applied it was probably a low priority to devote Company resources as the purchase of a new pin for which they have a captive market was their preferred solution....Pirate


That is simply not the case Pirate. We have changed the pins once already in this product due to our "listening" to consumer feedback. That was before you bought an Adventure Island I am pretty sure. What we have is an increasing volume of boats and users that are becoming more and more demanding of its performance.

It is unfair to keep saying that Hobie Cat had chosen to ignore this issue or any other that is brought up here. We do listen and we do respond with changes when warranted.

You started a thread about pins. I know you have certainly been following along and know where we stand on this. This issue is still under study... we need to fully understand the issue of variable failures reported before we jump to conclusions. This is not simple. The risk is more significant damage to the rudder housing or hull itself. There is a breaking point for most any product built. We just are trying to safely determine what that is. At the moment... it is the pin, as it is designed to do.


Hi Matt, initially when I began the thread on rudder pin improvement it was and still is with the noblest of intentions after all I haven't even had a pin failure to date. I earlier described the Hobie Adventure Island as a brilliant combination sailer/kayak that many people around the world of all ages and persuasions do and will get much pleasure from. I am still a staunch supporter for Hobie but strongly believe R & D is still necessary in this area to finish off this fantastic little craft both for comfort and for safety sake. I do agree the issue and threads have grown far larger than intended and and which I have taken an over zealous stance in relation to the rudder pins breaking which seems to re-kindle every time somone here reports another pin breakeage. I will try very hard in the future to take a back seat on this issue and let Hobie do the driving....Pirate


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:42 am 
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I agree with some of the ideas expressed here on keeping stress off the rudder. I went out this weekend in 15 to 20kt winds (maybe higher gusts) and 2 to 4 seas. I began with a reefed sail of about 3/4 and experienced weather helm a couple times which stresses the rudder if you try and over come it without reefing. I just let the boat do its thing without thwarting it with the rudder, reefed the sail down to a little less than 3/4 and was back on my way. I experienced no other weather helm problems while tacking close hauled into wind, and no more noticeable stress on rudder on that tack.

The only other tack which I thought stressed the rudder occasionally was downwind/downswell(following seas). Again, rather than constantly fight what the boat wanted to do by using the rudder, I would let it surf down and after the wave passed under I got control of the rudder again with little pressure on it. Also using the sail to drop some speed seemed to help a little too.

I feel that I know the rudder is stressed when I use the handle to turn the rudder and I have to push harder than normal to turn, if I feel any pressure, I back off and let the boat do its thing or try some other way to regain control without trying to force the rudder.

Sunday, three of us went out in the above conditions for 2+ hrs with no pin breaks. We were all aware of all the rudder pin postings so maybe that made us all be a little more gentler on the rudder controls, which we should probably do as sailors anyway. Like someone said early the less rudder the more speed.

The last two sails made me wonder if the people breaking pins are trying to use the rudder handle to steer the direction they want and force thru the turn. I felt that if I really pushed on the handle when it had stress and tried to force the turn I could break the pin.

Also, maybe pin breaks have to do with going down swell or traveling in a following sea?

I thought about this the other day, some people had mentioned loose pins, think you might be able to wrap aluminum foil around it and lubricate it? Is that a good idea?

I must agree with a lot of people though. The boat is amazing and fun. I'm still amazed at how well it did in the weather this weekend. I felt it would handle much rougher conditions. I don't plan on being out in those but am glad to know it will handle them.

Btw, hobie should send us some free trinkets for all the advertising we do for them. People at the boat ramps, on boats, kayaks, surf skis, docks, etc...all ask us about the boats and inquire about them. Hobie is starting to cut into my sailing / fishing time!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:43 am 
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Quote:
People at the boat ramps, on boats, kayaks, surf skis, docks, etc...all ask us about the boats and inquire about them. Hobie is starting to cut into my sailing / fishing time!


We know you LOVE it!

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Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


Last edited by mmiller on Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:20 pm 
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Location: Ettalong Beach, Central Coast, Australia
JollyGreen wrote:
Also, maybe pin breaks have to do with going down swell or traveling in a following sea?


In my case no. I do sail in strong wind, but across the swell. I am on my third pin in a year.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:25 pm 
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Location: Florida
Wife's Island purchased in Fall/Winter 2006 has never broken a rudder pin. I did replace it last year as a precaution.

Got my Island at the same time, have probable over 5,000 miles on it. Only broke 1 rudder pin & it was my fault.

I had tightened the left/right rudder control lines too tight. I was trying to remove every little bit of rudder slop out of the steering. Well, you could actually hear the rudder squeak when you turned it. It only took a few outings before it twisted the pin. Now my rudder steering lines have the proper adjustment.

Neither of us are using the 2 seperate newer up/down handle lines. We are both using the original single handle behind the seat to raise/lower the rudder.

I would suggest that if your rudder squeaks - adjust it.
People may also me overtightening their "down" handle line and adding extra stress to the pin. Our "down" setting with the old style can't be over-stressed.

I carry extra pins and have read much here on pin failure - just never been bitten yet.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:22 pm 
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Well here I go again. Apparently can't leave it alone it seems. Some boats break pins and some don't. Both Mickey and I have independently felt the rudder controls develop a stiffness or binding whilst sailing in very light conditions downwind which which could have had absolutely nothing to do with the light conditons.
Possibilities: Friction between pin, boat insert and plastic rudder box.
Binding of internal or external control lines and system.
Rudder handle bearing friction
........Pirate


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:10 pm 
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Yakaholic wrote:
People may also me overtightening their "down" handle line and adding extra stress to the pin. Our "down" setting with the old style can't be over-stressed.


This is something I also feel is a big factor. The ability to smack the rudder up and down and over tension in the down position causes extra stress and friction.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:22 pm 
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mmiller wrote:
Yakaholic wrote:
People may also me overtightening their "down" handle line and adding extra stress to the pin. Our "down" setting with the old style can't be over-stressed.


This is something I also feel is a big factor. The ability to smack the rudder up and down and over tension in the down position causes extra stress and friction.


Excepting that many of the reported failures occur to practically new pins with very little chance of being smacked up and down violently and overtensioned for a considerable time...Pirate


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:21 pm 
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Location: Ettalong Beach, Central Coast, Australia
mmiller wrote:
Yakaholic wrote:
People may also me overtightening their "down" handle line and adding extra stress to the pin. Our "down" setting with the old style can't be over-stressed.


This is something I also feel is a big factor. The ability to smack the rudder up and down and over tension in the down position causes extra stress and friction.


I don't believe that has ever caused my problems. I am keeping a log of all my sailing, and my pin last failed in under 6 hours. What I would acknowledge is that my left right lines are very tight. Not too tight to prevent me replacing the assembly though. But I tightened them after I received the AI and it would not track straight.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:30 pm 
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Yakaholic wrote:
I had tightened the left/right rudder control lines too tight. I was trying to remove every little bit of rudder slop out of the steering. Well, you could actually hear the rudder squeak when you turned it. It only took a few outings before it twisted the pin. Now my rudder steering lines have the proper adjustment..


That's a possibility, that I will consider. Mine are tight, I tightened them to eliminate the fact that it would not track straight. My last pin started squeaking, but I suspect that's because it was bent and starting to fail. So when it starts squeaking is probably too late. I will probably now wait another 4 hours sailing, and probably will need to replace the pin, and then I will adjust the lines. Otherwise I am changing things mid test.

I probably will go up to Broughton Island tomorrow, for an overnight trip. That will probably be about 5 hours each way, well out at sea. I think I might just fit a new pin at the Island, if I get that far without breakage. But the winds yesterday were up to 40kts, so I am hoping it will be easier going. I took delivery of a handheld VHF radio this morning, and have been waiting for that before such a long solo trip.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:18 am 
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The reason that I am sure overtightening on my rudder lines caused my pin to fail is that when it failed I was in very light sailing conditions. It was under 10mph wind and very liesurely, in fact I was only a few 100 yards from my docking spot on the river. It was squeaking right up until the time it broke. :?
So, it wasn't a boat wake, hard upwind sailing, or an object strike - just a mis-adjustment.

When I removed what was left of the pin it looked twisted and pulled. By overtightening the streering lines I was stressing the rudder forward, constantly pulling on the pin.

It only took a few (2-3) outings to creating a twisted broken pin in a simple case of cause and effect.

If an over tight steering line can quickly fail a pin imagine what happens when you pull the "down" line too hard and add the stress of all that stretched bungie line to the rudder. :shock:

Yes, you want your rudder to stay down and not pop up, but I bet in most cases you could ease off on how much torque is on the down line and be just fine. Lower the rudder w/o stretching the bungie - Saving the wear and tear on the pin.


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