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 Post subject: 2015 AI Capsize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:17 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 2287
Location: South Florida
I went on my first camping trip with my AI 2. 6 of us launched from Chokoloskee causeway and headed for Pavilion Key. Our last trip to Pavilion was about 2 weeks ago, and we launched in very strong winds with a severe front moving through. Half of that group made it, the other half turned back for various reasons. You can read about it here: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&p=253817#p253817 There are 2 main posts about that trip on that page.

Our trip this week also started in strong winds, about 16-17 knots (18-20 mph). We were making good progress into these headwinds, when my AI 2 capsized. I plan to write up the capsize in more detail on the above thread, but I will provide the salient points here.

• It was the most likely culprit, a broken shear pin on the starboard brace. As Fusioneng will tell us, it is unnecessary if you tie a proper safety line from bow to the amas.
• When the shear pin broke, I was in the water in the blink of the eye.
• It was rough seas, and recovery was slow, but routine. I did it solo because my friends were having cocktails on Pavilion.
• I lost significant gear which was firmly bungeed on, but de-bungeed in the rough seas. I re-bungeed it better, but still lost it.
• My hakas had very little gear on them. My lost gear was stored in a large dry bag bungeed on the stern storage area.
• Lesson learned, tether all valuable gear with a hard line.
• It was my first shear-pin break in 8 yrs sailing AIs, and it was the first time camping with the AI 2.
• The hakas did not prevent the folding in of the free aka/ama because they were designed to fit my 2011 AI rather than my new AI 2.
• Hobie may have to re-think or re-engineer the shear pin for the AI 2.

A final thought: "speed kills."

Keith

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"Don't kid yourselves, sharks are everywhere in the Everglades" Chekika

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Last edited by Chekika on Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2015 AI Capsize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:31 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Keith, on behalf of the worldwide Hobie Island community, I would like to congratulate you on the thoroughness which you have applied in ensuring your review of the AI2 is as complete as possible. However, I think you should know that we are not expecting you to carry out tests with the hull totally flooded, or on fire, and to be honest, we thought your capsize test went above and beyond our expectations of you! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

FWIW, I run my safety lines from the mast step out to the padeyes on the amas. I guess if these padeyes are no longer fitted on later Isl;ands, you could use the handles. I prefer this set-up to running a line from the bow as I can reach them with a knife should it become necessary.

Another mod I have made, apart from doubling up the ama bungees (done a little differently than on the 2015 AI) is to tie some 1000# dyeema rudder line to a washer which sits inside the plastic bungee holder on the ama, is threaded through between the two bungees, and has a loop over the aka button. This doesn't have to be tight, but is the last (and absolute) line of defence which will prevent the aka coming out of the ama, even if BOTH bungees break.

Not yet fitted in this photo.
Image

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 AI Capsize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:25 pm
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Location: Jaco, Costa Rica
Wow, Keith
Sorry to hear of your mishap. Glad you shared it with us and are okay. I've had the modifications posted by Fusioneng on my mind, to do. Will now put on my must do list. A lesson for all to learn from.

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Mark
Costa Rica Kayak Guide
http://www.cryaker.com
Tandem Island- 2013
Adventure Island- 2014
Revolution 13- 2013


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 AI Capsize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:31 pm
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Location: New Jersey
thanks for sharing - I will add leashes to all my dry bags now - thanks

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Al aka "YAKMAN"


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 AI Capsize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:33 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:11 pm
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Yes, thanks for sharing lessons. And great job in being able to recover solo. I had gotten a little lax in my tethering, that was a good reminder not to count on bungees.

My buddy and I will be headed down that way to camp on Helen Key next weekend (24th), I hope the weather will have calmed down a bit, as your last two trips to Pavilion have been quite filled with adventure.

We were hoping to beat the skeeters down this year but have probably waited too late.


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 AI Capsize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:06 pm 
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Location: South Florida
Hi Totch, it was very hot on Pavilion. We had one large tarp, still hot as the sun/heat penetrates thru these thin tarps. Nevertheless, any tarp is better than none. Mosquitos were thick on Rabbit Key after dark, but not too bad on Pavilion. The difference is that on Rabbit, you are forced to camp near the mangroves, whereas at the north end of Pavilion, you are 200-300 yds from the mangroves. I never felt fully hydrated; couldn't seem to keep up with it in the intense heat even though I drank as much as a quart of water during the night.

Keith

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"Don't kid yourselves, sharks are everywhere in the Everglades" Chekika

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 AI Capsize
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:37 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:24 pm
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Location: Tampa, Florida, U.S.A.
Hey Keith,

Sorry to hear that you capsized inadvertently but Glad to hear you we're able to recover "routinely" and all is well save for some lost gear... I'm not sure routine can be appropriately used here though! Looking forward to the trip report...

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Don Haynes
Aka TriBlue

2005 Outback Red
2011 Adventure Blue converted to an Island
2015 Tandem Island Red

E-mail: haynesundr@aol.com


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 AI Capsize
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 5:10 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:30 am
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Location: Clearwater, Fl
WOW ! That sounds pretty scary with a loaded AI, big seas, the remoteness of your location AND sailing solo when the incident occurred. Even though you said you're going to write about it more I have a few questions:

Did you also have your cooler on the Stern ? How fast were you going when this happened ? Did you have to replace the shear pin before getting back on board ?

Glad you're ok Keith. It could have turned out a lot worse in those circumstances.

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Jim


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 AI Capsize
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 6:26 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
CaptnChaos wrote:
WOW ! That sounds pretty scary with a loaded AI, big seas, the remoteness of your location AND sailing solo when the incident occurred. SNIP
Glad you're ok Keith. It could have turned out a lot worse in those circumstances.


Keith I apologise for my attempt at lessening the gravity of the situation with my comments above, and I am sorry that you had to endure what must have been a very alarming situation during the capsize and protracted recovery.

My smartarse commemts were out of order.
Tony

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 AI Capsize
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:05 am 
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Location: South Florida
CaptnChaos wrote:
WOW ! That sounds pretty scary with a loaded AI, big seas, the remoteness of your location AND sailing solo when the incident occurred. Even though you said you're going to write about it more I have a few questions:

Did you also have your cooler on the Stern ? How fast were you going when this happened ? Did you have to replace the shear pin before getting back on board ?

Glad you're ok Keith. It could have turned out a lot worse in those circumstances.

Hi Jim, I've referred to the righting of the boat as "routine" partly because of your good description about righting your AI after your accident. Also, I righted my Hobie 16 many times, but that was 45 yrs ago.

The cooler and 65L dry bag were on the stern. Unlike the pre-2015 AIs, the AI 2 handled that load easily. I was probably doing 6-8 mph when the pin broke, and I dumped in an instant. Really, absolutely no time to think about it. One moment I was sailing normally, next split second, I was in the water. I replaced the shear pin AFTER I righted the boat. Unfortunately, for recovering my gear, the jostling while capsized caused the attachment button to come loose and fall out. So, when I had the shear pin replaced and went to attach to the hull, there was nothing to attach to!! This was the main cause of losing my valuable dry bag. I sailed the disabled boat to a small island and straightened the boat out, but it just took too much time. When I got back out in the vicinity of the capsize, too much time had elapsed, and there were too many whitecaps to see anything floating in the mess.

tonystott wrote:
Keith I apologise for my attempt at lessening the gravity of the situation with my comments above, and I am sorry that you had to endure what must have been a very alarming situation during the capsize and protracted recovery.

My smartarse commemts were out of order.
Tony

Absolutely not a problem, Tony. I enjoyed your comment.

TriBlue wrote:
Hey Keith,

Sorry to hear that you capsized inadvertently but Glad to hear you we're able to recover "routinely" and all is well save for some lost gear... I'm not sure routine can be appropriately used here though! Looking forward to the trip report...

Hi Don,

"Routine" may not be the best word, since it was the first AI capsize for me. Still, as I said above, I just did the things any of us would do. It was hard actually, but seemed "routine."

@Stringy--Stringy, if you are reading this, I've gone from thinking "no handles on the 2015 AI" was not a problem, to thinking "What a dumb move!" There are not a lot of things to grab onto when in the water trying to right your boat. Handles would definitely help. What a dumb move!

Keith

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"Don't kid yourselves, sharks are everywhere in the Everglades" Chekika

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Last edited by Chekika on Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2015 AI Capsize
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:19 am 
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Quote:
I replaced the shear pin AFTER I righted the boat. Unfortunately, for recovering my gear, the jostling while capsized caused the attachment button to come loose and fall out.


If you don’t mind, what is the attachment button? Is this the "button post" on the hull where the ama support bars attach to the hull and keep the amas in the out position? Or a button for the gear bungies? Or?? I wonder what is inside the hull and keeps these attached? Not at all good if they fall out.

When you recovered, did you have to collapse both amas? I think on the old AI, you could recover with one ama still out but on the TI you need to have both collapsed.

Good story by the way...


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 AI Capsize
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:37 am 
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Location: Clearwater, Fl
Chekika wrote:
I've gone from thinking "no handles on the 2015 AI" was not a problem, to thinking "What a dumb move!" There are not a lot of things to grab onto when in the water trying to right your boat. Handles would definitely help. What a dumb move!

Keith


That was the first thing I thought of when hearing they removed the handles. I agree that's a dumb move on Hobie's part to remove the handles instead of just tweaking the flaws.

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 Post subject: Re: 2015 AI Capsize
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:55 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
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Location: South Florida
walt wrote:
Quote:
I replaced the shear pin AFTER I righted the boat. Unfortunately, for recovering my gear, the jostling while capsized caused the attachment button to come loose and fall out.


If you don’t mind, what is the attachment button? Is this the "button post" on the hull where the ama support bars attach to the hull and keep the amas in the out position? I wonder what is inside the hull and keeps these attached? Not at all good if they fall out.

When you recovered, did you have to collapse both amas? I think on the old AI, you could recover with one ama still out but on the TI you need to have both collapsed.

Good story by the way...

The attachment button is the marble-size knob on the hull to which the aka brace attaches. If the shear pin on the brace does not break, the next weakest link is the hull where the knob attaches. The knob can literally tear out of the hull--now you really do have a serious problem. Here is an old forum post on the topic:
http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=9791 That knob is still attached to the aka brace after the shear pin breaks. The brace attached to the knob apparently worked the threaded knob loose due to the jostling of the waves. It was gone when I went to attach the brace (newly connected with a shear pin) to the hull. That was a shock.

ONLY 1 AMA COLLAPSED. It was the one that collapsed when the shear pin went. When a sail boat capsizes, the sail is initially on the leeward side, but rotates around to a trailing position on the windward side. The boat is now sideways in the water, with the extended ama in the air (unless you "turtle" and your boat is upside down.) My mast must have gouged the bottom, perhaps on the initial capsize, because it had sand between the actual mast and the stitched sail. Once, the mast rotated into the windward side, it did not have a tendency to turtle.

Back to the amas--one is collapsed, one is extended. The extended one keeps you from flipping over again once the boat comes upright.

Keith

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"Don't kid yourselves, sharks are everywhere in the Everglades" Chekika

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 AI Capsize
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:56 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Thanks for providing more detail of your capsize Keith. I am somewhat alarmed to hear that the brace ball-mount got ripped out.

As the TI has the aka braces leading forwards (unlike on the AI), collision of the ama will put immediate shear loads on that ball.

I am now very glad that my additional lines from mast base to ama padeye are not spongy as others have suggested, but fairly stiff 6mm line, with snap shackles onto the ama. This will take some of the initial impact loads should the ama run into anything.

I will also add lines so I could create am "X" pattern of additional lines for edxpedition trips.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 AI Capsize
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:49 am 
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No, Tony, sorry for the misunderstanding. The brace ball did not get ripped out, rather, being attached to the spring-loaded brace connection, it gradually unscrewed due to the wave action and fell out. I'm guessing the brace was acting as a wrench. Once I replaced the ball after sailing to a small island, it was good. No permanent damage.

Next added accessories: other than a few padeyes and top hats I've added, my next accessory is going to be a pair of righting/grab lines which will run from the front xbar to the rear xbar. Its an old sea kayak trick to keep your kayak from drifting away from you. One on each side, they will run along the cockpit coaming. They will serve as handles to tip the boat up in my driveway for rinsing--up until now, that is where I missed the handles. More importantly, these lines will serve as grab lines when you are in the water. Use them to hang onto your boat and help pull yourself up. When I'm standing on my center board, ready to right my capsized boat, I can use these lines to pull it over and hang onto as I return (get dumped) into the water. Again, I will use them to help pull myself from the water onto the hull or perhaps the haka. My friend Jim (aka CaptnChaos) said after his capsize he was happy he did not have his hakas on. I was happy to have my hakas, because the vertical one was the only friendly handhold I had to get my boat pulled over to upright. Now, I will have righting lines.

Keith

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"Don't kid yourselves, sharks are everywhere in the Everglades" Chekika

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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