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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:35 pm 
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Location: Mt Kuring-Gai, NSW, Australia
dougc405 wrote:
I have a TI with the new-style rudder. The one time I had to remove the rudder pin (at the dock), it was a royal pain to remove the little retainer ring. I couldn't imagine doing that out on the water, possible in rough seas. I don't see that the ring is really necessary, since the control lines, which thread through the slot on top of the rudder pin, would prevent the pin from walking itself out. Has anyone else abandonded use of the retainer clip? BTW, I tried bending the end of the ring out a bit to make it easier to get on and off, but there didn't seem to be a point where that did any good and still allowed the ring to be threaded through the pin.


As you will find in recent posts elsewhere on the forum, some have chosen to use small R clips instead, and some have chosen
not to use a clip at all.
I agree with you - when I've had a change my PINs the metal ring was a real pain. I plan to find some R clips to fit long term,
and if I ever have to change a PIN on the water - I won't be mucking any with any retainer until I get home.


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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:55 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
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Location: Kailua 96734
Yes, a stubby cotter clip works fine in there.

And yes, the clip is redundant. Though I use one anyway.

Image

Once the pin breaks in 2, you won't won't be worrying about slip rings. Pull the halves out. Slide a new pin in and it will stay.


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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:15 pm 
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Location: Mt Kuring-Gai, NSW, Australia
tonystott wrote:
An Evolve wouldn't ave been any real help. The issue was the inability to move in the desired direction. I could move as fast as I wanted, but not in the right direction


I would hope that with the sail down (and boat flat), and evolve set to a moderate speed, you would be able to
use a paddle at the bow to keep the boat pointing in the right direction - given that you would be able to dedicate
all your arms and legs to this task.

(I say all this as hypothesis, and as someone who wasn't 7 miles off the coast of Australia trying to get home)


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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:03 pm 
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Location: Aussie living in San Diego, CA
Tom Kirkman wrote:
Something on the boat is going to be the weak link. It's a matter of figuring out what part or piece you'd want that to be. If you put in a steel pin instead of a plastic one, then any damage or failure would most likely take place at the grudgeon or the bolts holding it on, which you're not likely to be able to replace on the water or even on the beach. Beef those up and now any failure will move to another part, somewhere on the boat.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see certain aspects of the Island Series kayaks made slightly beefier, but there is only so much you can do before you reach a point of diminishing returns or have to change the very nature of the boat that most of find so appealing.

In the meantime, you might want to think about replacing the rudder pin every so many trips out. Granted, sudden failures certainly occur but in at least some cases I'd think damage can be cumulative and could therefore be caught before total failure either by inspection or replacement every so often. I've only had my Island boats for going on a year, but I do sail them pretty hard and plan to replace the rudder pins on both in June, whether they appear damaged or not.


Hey Tom I hear you - and I had dismissed beefing up the rudder pin or other parts too (I'll leave that to Hobie Engineers), I would rather have a simple but effective alternative rudder/steerage system should it fail. I have some ideas in mind now that I am thinking about it and it looks like no-one else has gone down that path on the forum so I'll put a little thought into it.

By the way your comment on changing the pins out under scheduled maintenance rather than on failure is sage advice indeed. How many trips do you think would be about right - 25?

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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 9:08 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm
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Location: Houston, TX
I have sailed about 1-2 times a week for the last year WITHOUT using the retaining ring at all. Most of those outings are close to 20 miles and most offshore. Never once has there been an issue and I am convinced we don't need the ring.

This is a great thread and I appreciate everyone's input. This next year a bunch of us in Houston are planning an outing to practice replacing pins, practice sailing without rudders, capsizing/righting our boats, etc all while out on the water. If any of you have groups in your area, it might be wise to set up a "Disaster Preparation Day" of your own.


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:35 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Keep the comments coming folks, we are all learning here.

A few points.
Pin retainer. I agree that realistically, the most likely time you might need one is if you transport your hull inverted, but even then you would need both up and down lines uncleated before there would be any chance of the pin coming out. I was also put off by the fiddly split ring, so modified my spare pins by filing a >vertical< slot (so as not to weaken the pin) so I could fit one of those 2mm zip-ties, with a second one to lock it in. But I am not bothering with my new pins, as I keep my TI on the trailer between gigs.
Image

Emergency steering. As a result of my original rudder issue, I fitted external emergency lines so I could continue to operate the rudder reasonably well even if the internal links failed again. This of cores still relies on the pin not failing, so it is not the whole solution. One side is tensioned by bungee cord, while the other uses 2 to 1 ratio to lessen the effort. Both sides lead to clamcleats next to the seat. So steering involves tensioning the bungee for the conditions, and steering by pulling on the other line as necessary. Incidentally, the extension pieces both broke off when the pin broke, but this was my fault as I had used 1mm thick carbon fibre I had lying around, which was easily up to the job when the loads were horizontal, but when the pin broke, they were subject to twisting force and snapped. Their replacements will be a little thicker...
Image

In summary, I tend to believe that the only way to ensure 100% redundancy of the rudder is to build a completely separate second rudder and linkage. Frankly, I do not believe the risks could justify such an extreme (and no doubt ugly as a hatfull of a***holes) step. I am happy with my alternative means of steering if the rudder lines break, and clearly changing the pin at sea is doable if conditions are not too rough.

BTW Slaughter, in my "incident" the wind was not that strong really, just persistently offshore in direction, and I kick myself that I didn't deploy a sea anchor, which would have hugely reduced my rate of drift . I hope everyone has a drift chute on board...

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:41 pm
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Location: Aussie living in San Diego, CA
OK so here's a video of a guy (Cavendish62) who is out sailing in good sailing conditions, breaks a rudder pin, replaces it, sails on then breaks another pin - and then pulls out an emergency rudder that he happened to have made for such occasions - and keeps on sailing - didn't even miss a beat. THIS is what I was thinking about in having an emergency rudder and it seems Cavendish62 has been there done that!
https://vimeo.com/24829066

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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:38 am 
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Location: Kailua 96734
Eduardo is an animal. I love to watch him break stuff, especially all the rules.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:31 pm 
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Location: Western MA
Thanks for bringing the idea of PM on the rudder pin up guys. I went down and checked mine and it looks about to break. It looks like it has been shifted somehow but does not seen structurally sound. Changed it out in the garage which is certainly far easier than on the water but I plan to try that next time I am out.

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 5:20 pm 
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Location: Pompano Beach, FL
Who needs rudder pins with a bow-thruster?!!! :lol:
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 1:01 am 
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Location: Salem, Oregon USA
I had this happen to me last year while sailing the columbia river gorge in 40mph constant wind. I think it became weakened when I side-swiped a rock earlier in the day. It was getting late (darkness), I was cold, wet, tired and it gave out. I used my paddle to be blown onto a beach where I replaced it with the handy spare in the rear hatch. Now that I know what a catastrophe it is, I always make sure I have a spare, plus I've fashioned another spare from a plastic coat hangar, which is much to strong by the designer's standards, but is there if needed.


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 1:12 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
YakAttaque wrote:
I had this happen to me last year while sailing the columbia river gorge in 40mph constant wind. I think it became weakened when I side-swiped a rock earlier in the day. It was getting late (darkness), I was cold, wet, tired and it gave out. I used my paddle to be blown onto a beach where I replaced it with the handy spare in the rear hatch. Now that I know what a catastrophe it is, I always make sure I have a spare, plus I've fashioned another spare from a plastic coat hangar, which is much to strong by the designer's standards, but is there if needed.

Genuine replacement pins are so cheap that I make a point of replacing a pin before any "expedition" type voyage, keeping the used ones as spares. (Last year I broke two pins on th one trip!) One thing I note is that a pin tends to pick up a small mark every time the bottom of the rudder hits something (photo to come), and obviously any such marks represent possible weakening of the pin.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 1:57 am 
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That's good planning! using the 'used' pin as the spare rather than the new pin, thus potentially preventing the catastrophe from happening (unless you side-swipe a rock during the day, now you have 2 weak pins). The coat hangar pin exists for survival purposes only.


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:10 pm 
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Location: Jerrabomberra, New South Wales, Australia
I have broken a couple, but, before I ever went out in the big blue for the first time, I worked out a drill to replace the pin. Then found a nice stretch of water and put the drill into practice.

Pin shears
1. furl sail
2. reel in all lines and stow rods
3. release rudder line cleat
4. retrieve new pin from centre hatch
5. don and secure leg rope
6. don shark shield and turn it on
7.enter water, take out old pin and replace with new
(check new pin is secure)
8. get back into yak trying hard not to get zapped by shark shield. :roll:

I take 4 new pins every time I go out.


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 7:05 pm 
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Unless you have delicate or sharp stuff stored in the rear-well that you can't lay on, I always have found it easier to lay over the well to replace pins.

I have replaced more than my share of pins over the years and have tried every way I have thought of. Treading water to do it was my least favorite, closely followed by landing and launching again off shore in larger shore break. But, to each their own. :)

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