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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:01 pm 
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I am a Hobie Cat Getaway owner and launch from the beach all summer long. I normally don't go out in super heavy weather because I am not a fan of pitchpolling or flipping which I have done on my Getaway. I am looking into buying a Tandem Island this spring but have never sailed one. I have seen plenty of videos of the TI in the ocean but have not seen any flip. My question, is the TI as prone to flipping or pitchpolling as a normal Hobie Cat? Thanks for all responses. Dom


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:20 pm 
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It can and will capsize and/or pitchpole, but is in no way as prone to doing so as nearly any beach cat. The width coupled with the supplied sail area keeps you fairly safe from having that happen.

While some have evidently flipped their AI/TI due to high winds and/or rough water, I suspect the majority that have done so had it happen due to some unfortunate event such as an ama detachment, aka arm fold-in, etc.

You'll enjoy the furling main - you can always dial in the right amount of sail for the conditions. But do not expect the same excitement as you get on a beach cat.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:17 pm 
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Further to Tom's comments, you have a couple of features working in your favour with a TI compared to typical off-the-beach cats.
The leeward ama does not have enough bouyancy to support the other two hulls, so will tend to submerge, leaving the main hull in the water, and the windward ama in the air. The extra drag of the submerged ama will tend to slow down the TI. Even if tramps are fitted, their area will be smaller than that of a cat, and more importantly no more han 5 feet above the waterline, reducing tendency to blow the craft over.

The abilitty to furl your mainsail should never be underestimated. As wind speed increases, the amount of unfurled sail area needed to provide the same drive reduces (The fastest I ever got my TI going was with less than half the sail unfurled). By comparison, cats tend to have no easy way to reduce sail area, so becoming overpowered is easier.

As Tom said, the ultimate excitement levels available are lower than available from a cat, but the versatility of a TI compensates in other ways.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:52 pm 
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To the best of my knowledge, the only time an AI has ever flipped is if it's been in breaking surf or if it has had trampolines fitted in high winds or if an ama has come adrift (equipment failure). Prolly the same for the TI.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:34 am 
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On all of my camping trips, I deploy hakas to store gear. IMO, they also stabilize the aka/amas preventing the brace pin breaking in rough seas. In addition, they will tend to hold the akas in place in case the aka knuckle insert becomes unseated--this has never happened to me, but others have reported problems. So, if these assumptions are true, hakas reduce the likelihood of equipment failure leading to capsize.

Tramps are another issue. When I bought my used 2011 AI, it came w/ a pair of tramps, which I sold unused. Tramps have always seemed to be the one accessory which could cause a capsize in strong winds & rough seas, exactly the wrong time to be in an upside down world.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:47 pm 
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This will be my 7th year of sailing AI's/TI's, in all types of conditions, inshore/offshore, mostly with tramps and I am yet to experience a capsize or really even come close. Three times others sailing with me have suffered aka pin breakage and aka collapse, in strong winds (no tramps) and still not capsized.

Is a TI prone to flipping? Definitely not.
Can it flip? Well yes, capsizes have been reported but are extremely rare and mostly caused by operator error IMHO.

PS- Keith, I'm struggling to understand why you keep bagging an accessory you admit you have never even used?! :?
Until the haka came along, I considered tramps to be the best accessory for improving sailing and safety. Tramps prevent aka collapse/separation more effectively than haka.
Tramps are an accessory I wouldn't be without.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:31 pm 
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Stingy, I clearly state that I have no experience with them, and that my views are my opinion. My experience is with hakas. When I first put my hakas on, I noticed the wind pressure on them, and the effect bothered me--I've gotten used to it now. At least one other person on this forum (I believe it was a friend in Hawaii--I'm not going to bother looking it up) said that when tramps came out, capsizes increased.

I have on 2 occasions come close to capsizing--one was due to my error (flooded hull,) which aggravated the problem. The other was simply an unusually strong gust of wind, I guess--not really sure what caused the momentary problem. I'm happy that I did not have ANY extra wind resistance on the boat at those times.

Almost all people I sail with use hakas. It is my decision to not use tramps because I think they may cause a capsize--it is simply a gut feeling. Your positive experience and feelings about tramps is interesting.

Stringy, your views are greatly respected and interesting. Thanks!

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Last edited by Chekika on Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:18 pm 
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Chekika wrote:
Stringy, your views are greatly respected and interesting. Thanks!
Keith


As are yours Keith!

We'll just have to agree that we disagree over tramps use.

I guess I'm keen to counter the perception that adding tramps guarantees a capsize.
My experience using the tramps has shown that is not the case.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:28 pm 
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Location: Houston, TX
Tramps increase the risk of me capsizing my AI- I can feel it and I've come close 2 times over the last three years. Threw me off the boat once. I assume it does this to a TI too. Still I love to use tramps, especially in colder waters. Could not imagine being without them. But when offshore in the warm waters of the Gulf of Mexico, I roll them up an opt for safety.

In three years I have never known someone personally that capsized a TI (or AI for that matter). Obviously YouTube proves it can happen but these are rare.

Greg


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:28 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Of course my TI is not like any others so my circumstances are of course different. I have never capsized completely but have come very close several times. Typically my saving grace is to dive out onto the tramp. One time I almost pitch poled, I was barraling along in a strong 20 mph plus downwind run with my huge spinnaker out, I hit a wave wrong and the boat dove, I went from 20 mph to zero in about 2 seconds, the rear of the boat went way into the air. Fortunately for me my rear stay line snapped and threw the spinnaker into the water ahead of me, where I then ran over it (oops). Two other times I was pushing too hard in gusty variable winds when a sudden gust hit and completely buried my AMA, both times I was able to release the sails in time, dive out onto the tramp to keep from capsizing completely. When you are going over on a TI its like slow motion, the AMA buries, then as your working like crazy to release the sails, at the same time your forward speed drops very rapidly. At the same time as the boat tips further the sail spills most of its air so the time it takes to get from 45 degrees to 90 degrees is lengthened, bottom line if you can dive out on the tramp fast enough you won't go over. These were all self inflicted occurrences.
I have been out a few times in really fierce conditions with 30-35 mph winds and 4-5 ft very steep waves (never on purpose) of course my main sail was almost completely furled and I was in survival mode, my biggest problem was exactly what everyone talks about, if I was broadside to the high sharp waves, as I crested over the tops of the waves the wind would catch the tramp, and was trying very hard to capsize me. The only thing I could do was dive out onto the tramp to prevent capsize. What I don't know is if I had not had my tramps on, would the boat have gone over anyway (with no tramps I would have had no means to hike out to counterbalance the boat). I really don't want to find out, it's far too dangerous in those conditions and I try to avoid stuff like that.
One other pointer about going fast (especially in open rough water) is if your going over about 15 mph and you bury the AMA (from a gust or boat wake) the nylon sheer pin on the AMA brace will break for sure, pretty much every time (I have sheared dozens of them), you need something additional to prevent the AMA from folding in, or else you will capsize every time, if that AMA folds in.
Hope this helps
Bob


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:18 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
One other pointer about going fast (especially in open rough water) is if your going over about 15 mph and you bury the AMA (from a gust or boat wake) the nylon sheer pin on the AMA brace will break for sure, pretty much every time (I have sheared dozens of them), you need something additional to prevent the AMA from folding in, or else you will capsize every time, if that AMA folds in. Of course, that is why you, especially, need to "harden" your Tandem.

Bob

Bob, I don't think you have to worry about people in their AI/TIs going over 15 mph. At first when I read your post, I didn't understand why you were breaking so many brace pins. I have NEVER broken a brace pin on my AI. The difference is you are able, with your motors + sails, able to reach speeds over 15 mph--probably regularly and, probably, far exceeding the specs of your Tandem, certainly the brace pin. Of course, that is why you, especially, need to "harden" your Tandem.

The unedited video below shows a sail on Biscayne Bay--open water, 12-mile round trip. Winds were continuous 15-20 mph. Throughout this 4 min clip, the downwind ama is regularly crashing through waves. From 2:45-3:30 min, a drop on the lens obscures the downwind ama/aka. If you can get through that period, you will see a seriously buried ama. I have never broken a brace pin on days like this one, or days in strong winds when I was fully loaded for camping, days with hakas, and days w/o hakas—I’ve never broken a brace pin. The difference between your experience and mine, has to be speed. I seldom get above 9 mph in my stock AI.

I’m holding my GoPro chest high. The sporadic “clicking” sounds you hear are due to an occasional drop hitting the camera casing.



Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:11 am 
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Keith:
You are probably correct, with my extra sail area in the conditions you are showing, I would need to be sitting sideways on the tramp (or HAKA's if I had them) with just my feet in the boat trying to keep that AMA out of the water. I have a cheap hiking stick made out of 3/8 PVC water pipe with a simple rope loop on the end that I use when hiking out. If you watch Tom Kirkmans videos of him pushing his Weta (an awesome boat BTW), that's what they do they use their body weight to balance the boat, which also means they have to switch seats on every tack. That's part of the beauty of the AI/TI design with the reef able sail, if you don't feel like getting out of the seat, you don't have to, you can either reef the sail some or relax it a bit and still move along pretty good even with a buried AMA. In my experience though any sudden or unusual force on my AMA's breaks that sheer pin (especially helpers trying to get the boat onto shore). If the nylon sheer pin were to break while underway, complete capsize is pretty much a sure thing. That's why I added a simple stretchy rope to mine so if the sheer bolt were happen to break , the rope prevent the AMA from folding in completely, so you can stop and replace the nylon bolt without having to capsize.
I saw that potential problem the first week I had my boat, it took all of five minutes to rig the rope and clip to the boat, the rope has never been removed from the boat (I just stuff the ropes into the mesh pockets during storage). When setting up it takes all of 2 seconds to clip the rope to the metal cleat on the AMA. The rope does 3 things, first in the event of a nylon pin breakage while underway it prevents the AMA from folding in completely, secondly if you happen to be the unlucky sap that didn't click the AMA braces in completely, the rope prevents the AMA knuckles from coming out of the tubes, and thirdly the rope prevents the AMA's from flopping up and down on their bungys when the AMA's are up in the air (that noise drives me nuts).
I'm not recommending anyone do some of the stuff I have done (most of which I just do to entertain myself looking for something to do). And on a stock AI/TI the likelihood of sheering the AKA sheer bolt is very slim in mild conditions. My purpose of sharing my experiences has only been to show what you can expect to fail on the boat if it is pushed beyond a certain point (valuable information in my opinion), and a few simple tips (fixes) that can hopefully prevent a catastrophe.

I'm not here to argue the point with anyone whether the AKA nylon bolt will sheer or not sheer, or what conditions it may sheer, the result is always the same, the boat capsizes. Adding the simple safety rope fix shown below (first published I think in around 2010-2011), I spotted this potential problem the first week I owned my TI, and came up with this super simple remedy, yet have never seen another TI or AI with a similar simple safety rope setup (though I have seen many more elaborate ones). Based on my own experience, I actually cringe when I watch videos like yours, waiting for inevitable (fold, splash, SOS (LOL)).

Image

That's all
Bob


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:39 pm 
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I'm one of those unlucky saps Bob mentions who recently had an aka come out of the brace on a dive trip (there's a post in this forum about it - search "Key Largo" or "Ill fated"). I have taken some of Bob's AMA-tethering advice to heart and am also ratcheting the akas together to prevent slippage. Although we didn't capsize on that trip, it seems that having an AMA fold or aka come out would be your quickest way to capsize.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:56 pm 
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The following comment (taken from a thread about sailing a TI from front or back) by Matt is interesting and is related to our discussion of tramps.
mmiller wrote:
Boards tend to "trip" the boat if all the way down in high wind.

I've wondered what the dynamics of tramps are in a capsize-nearing situation. Let's say you are on a reach in strong winds. At some point, maybe coming off a steep wave, the boat broaches a bit and heels over. Wind gets under the upwind tramp and begins to lift the boat up. At first, the downwind tramp presses on the surface of the water to resist the flipping motion--that is good. But, rather quickly, as the ama and tramp begin to submerge, the submerged tramp is going to act as a brake and "trip" the boat. At that point, you would have the worst of all worlds: the downwind tramp is acting to "trip" the boat, and the upwind tramp and broadside wind are forcing the boat over. Capsize! No! You take quick action by instantly releasing the sail and leap out onto the upwind tramp (hopefully, it is not nearing vertical). If you are not a 97# weakling, your weight on the tramp counteracts the tipping motion. The day is save once again, and you sail on, a bit shaken but upright.

Keith

PS Totch, you were not an "unlucky sap." You had an equipment failure that could have been catastrophic, but your actions saved the day, and you have learned a lot from the experience. Another example of "Experience is the best teacher."

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Last edited by Chekika on Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:09 pm 
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Totch:
I'm also one of those unlucky saps, to this day my wife's sister has not forgiven me for dumping her in the water when the knuckle came out (before I added the straps ( I didn't double check it)), I can still picture the helpless look on her face as she went into the water, I also ruined (split) the front aka hull brace and had to replace it. In my case the edge of the tramp got caught into the joint, and it didn't latch properly ( anymore I always give everything an extra tug (lol)), just to make sure.
Bob


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