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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:59 pm 
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For the long open water crossings next summer that'll span a good 15-20 miles I want to have a 2hp outboard as the doldrums are common up here during those months. Anyone have good advice on the best lightest outboard at they power and how fast can it push an AI or TI?

Pete


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:35 pm 
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Location: High Point, NC
Honda makes a 4 cycle 2.3 HP outboard that weighs just 29 pounds. Air cooled. If I was looking for something for the AI or TI, this would most likely be the way I'd go.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:18 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Petewp61:
I've had outboards mounted on my TI for about 3 1/2 years now. We are scuba divers and tend to sometimes go pretty far offshore and down in Key West the weather can be unpredictable, and it can get downright dangerous out there with the gulf stream and very strong currents. Plus being just a tiny island out in the middle of the gulf, if you miss it your pretty screwed (next stop Cuba). Not the place to have a rudder failure, or run out of wind.
So as a safety precaution I have always had an emergency outboard motor mounted on the boat, very seldom used it, and only used it when all else failed and my life was in danger.
I had an Island hopper outboard mounted on the boat. This is the motor I had ( http://www.ioutboardmotors.com/20hp-4-cycle.html). The motor weighs 20 lbs and as an emergency backup motor it did it's job, however over time in the salt water the motor pretty much rusted away and I began to worry about it, if you plan to use in salt water I'm not recommending to buy that motor.
I recently bought a new Honda 2.3 motor as a replacement for the aging Island hopper (which still runs, but it concerns me about all the rust and corrosion). I have to say I am really really impressed with this Honda motor, it appears really well made, and appears to fit the bill as a reliable emergency backup motor for me (something I can depend on in a pinch).
I am kicking myself now because when I bought my first motor, the runner up was the Honda (should have got the Honda in the first place in retrospect, but I wanted to save a few bucks).
Here is a thread about something I discovered accidentally while doing the ten hour break in on the Honda, also shows the Honda working, and some pics of the Honda on my boat. ( viewtopic.php?f=71&t=49014 ).
Now granted I was just screwing around out in the water trying to break in the Honda (the first ten hrs your supposed to keep it under 1/4 throttle so it can break in). I discovered that by deploying my wing jib sail, mainsail (pulled tight), pedaling, and using the motor on low throttle all at the same time, I can exploit the tri power capabilities of the Tandem Island, and get incredible speed (for a sailboat) and fuel economy (somewhere around 100 miles per gallon if the conditions are right).
So I've been screwing around with that powersailing stuff for the last week or two, I'm sure it's just a fad for me, and will grow old quickly and the Honda will go back to emergency backup status. However I'm getting kind of fond of being able to go out all day and sail at really decent speeds (6.5 to 9mph) in low wind conditions (under 6mph) and it only costs me a buck or so in gas. One thing about south Florida is our winds are typically very light (< 5mph) so the TI typically only sails at 2-3 mph ( I can walk faster), and when it's 90 degrees out there it's an oven out there on the water with no breeze. Which is typical conditions 10 months out of the year.
I haven't ran the motor at full throttle yet (about half throttle max so far), and haven't ran it without my sails so I don't know how fast it will go without the sails (don't really plan to either). Though powersailing with the wing sail and mainsail I have had it up over ten mph (at half throttle max) several times in favorable winds ( >7mph). But I'm assuming 3/4 of the power is coming from the wing sail, not the motor.
I do know that with my sails furled (not down) when I set the throttle to 1/4 throttle, it propels the boat to between 3 and 4mph into a 5mph wind, in fairly smooth seas. Then when I open up both my sails and start pedaling (with the motor at the same constant rpm) the boat speeds up to between 6.5 to 7.5 mph (depending on the waves). You can take from that what you want, I have no clue what it all means, I just know I can go out and have a really nice fun day sailing for under a buck, and I'm happy.
I'm probably going out tomorrow, I'm going to do a 50 mile run to Egmont Key and back, I will try opening up the throttle with the sails furled, and see what it does. (I'm guessing it will do around 10 mph, but that's just a guess)
Hope this helps you
Bob


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:14 am 
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You folks have been most helpful and I can't thank you enough. I'm concerned about the thirty pound Honda though being too much weight. Typical winds in summer up here are zero to 7-8 knots. Fall, spring and winter can see quite gusty days and some serious chop as well. Its the summer months though that can be the best times for excursions though as u kno its some of the best times, beaches etc. - but alas those still dog days.

A grand for the motor too yikes. I've got to work this one out.


Pete


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:55 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:02 am
Posts: 324
Location: Cape Coral, FL
I'm going to buy an old 2 cycle outboard, just can't beat the power to weight of 2 cycle motors.
Hard to find them, though.

J

_________________
2011 Golden Papaya TI with a 250 square foot spinnaker!
also a more manageable 100 square foot spinny...
&
the TI3 rear ama mod


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:30 pm 
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Bob,

Again my thanks for your input. What exactly was rusting out on the Island Hopper? Was it the engine cowling, drive rods? Thanks in advance.
Pix?

Pete


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Pete:
I just figured out how many sailing miles I had with Island Hopper motor mounted on my TI, and how many actual running hours on the motor in the last 3 1/2 yrs. Figuring I usually cover about 15-20 miles whenever I go out, and I typically go out twice a week all year round (been out 5 times this week), and when we are at our key west house (we try to go down there for a week every couple months, and I typically sail every other day down there, and usually go much farther down there (way better trade winds, a good day is 40 miles down there). Keep in mind I have massive sails on my TI (265 sq ft), and in good winds it will do between 15 and 20mph in the trade winds (with no motor running).
I have over 5000 sailing miles with the motor mounted on the boat (I have never not gone out in the ocean without the motor mounted on the boat). I kept track of how much fuel I used in the motor (12 gallons total at about 30 mpg comes out to 360 miles under power with the motor over the last 3 1/2 years. The only time the motor was ever used was when my life was in danger, especially down in key west where the currents from the gulf stream are very strong, Key west is a little tiny 4 mile long island in the middle of a big ocean. I have been caught in the strong 6 mph plus current on the west side of the island with the wind from the north, sailing and tacking like crazy, both of us pedaling as hard as we could, and the Island hopper on full throttle, we still could not make headway to get back to the island, we were being driven south (next stop cuba), it can get very scary out there at times. There were a couple times where we were just screwing around trying to powersail, but that was only a couple times, and frankly if you look at the videos of me and the Island hopper powersailing, it was pretty painful (loud and slow).
Like I said I always had the motor on the boat, but kept the motor head covered with a cloth bag. Typically if I didn't use the motor I would only occasionally rinse it off (I thought the bag was protecting it). Whenever I did use the motor I always faithfully rinsed it off and sprayed it down with WD 40 after use.
All the bolts on the motor began to rust pretty much right away ( I probably should have replaced them all with stainless steel right from the start). The steel mounting brackets for the fuel tank have rusted badly 3 or 4 times, along with the sheet metal surrounding the cylinder that directs the air from the flywheel fan. I have cleaned them and painted all of them 3 or 4 times. The muffler has rusted really badly, and actually has holes in it now where it has rusted thru. I have wire brushed and removed the rust on that and re-painted that about 5 or 6 times, I think it's finally done now and need to be replaced. The metal parts in the pull starter are corroded badly, and it barely works anymore. I have had to replace the fuel lines, and the pump bulb on the carb (the pump bulb is to get the fuel to the diaphragm carb for starting (like a weed wacker).
Don't get me wrong, the motor still runs fine, and I have changed the oil faithfully every 20 hrs of runtime, but with all the rust, I just don't feel I can count on it in a pinch any longer (keep in mind it's my emergency backup motor).
The Honda was my second choice 3 yrs ago, and now I actually own one, I am kicking myself for not going with the Honda in the first place just to save $250 bucks (the price difference 3 yrs ago). I really love the Honda, it's really well made and appears to be super reliable and very quiet compared to the Island hopper. At max throttle the Island hopper propelled my TI at between 4 and 5mph. The Honda at 1/4 throttle propels the boat at 3.5 to 4mph, and between 8 and 9 at max throttle (with no sails)of course this is all highly dependent on the wind, waves, and current of course. When powersailing with the Honda using the tri power capability of the TI (wind (wing sails), pedals, and motor (either electric or gas), I consistently get close to 100mpg with the Honda running at around 1/4 throttle. My average cruise speed is between 6 and 7.5 mph in light winds (<7mph). Basically I can go out powersailing all day for a buck in fuel with the Honda, and it is very quiet compared to the Island hopper.
The difference in quality between the Island Hopper and the Honda is like they are in two different leagues, and really can't be compared.
Even in Sarasota when the tide is running when I had the Island Hopper I was never able to go thru any of the passes against the 5-6mph tide current. Even with the motor on full, and pedaling as hard as possible I never made it (though I tried many times). With the Honda, I have no difficulty at all, I've done it a couple times now. Huge difference between the motors, though they are similar advertised horsepower (2.0 vs 2.3 hp)
Hope this helps you
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:45 pm 
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Location: Fairfax, CA USA
I looked at the Honda, and ended up with a Suzuki. Its only a couple of pounds heavier, and 300 bucks cheaper. Water cooled so you need to flush it after salt use. So far I'm pretty happy. We did a test towing another AI here in the bay ( prepping for way offshore trips), we did 13 miles of towing, found that we could run about 6mph, we dropped as low as 5 when hitting the big outgoing-with the throttle nearly pegged, and as high a 7 and a smidge with the sail up on the towboat. That burned a litre of fuel plus a bit.
To be honest I can't really tell the difference pedaling the AI with the motor on, even though 30 pounds seems like a ton.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:00 am 
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Thanks Bob for the in depth review. The rust is a sad thing for what seems like a good motor. I wonder if using some kind if appliance paint with epoxy base like Rustoleum makes would have helped here - besides the SS bolts you mentioned as an option. The weight is a red flag for me as I don't want to excess 20lbs so Im trying to imagine rustproofing with appropriate sealants - and if course SS bolts. I have a lot of fiberglass ing experience so I could see some disassembly and sheathing some things this way.

Power sailing is a very seductive idea for those extended range trips and where tidal currents can be excessive. Up here in the northeast those areas are pretty well mapped out - the race of Fishers Island and Plum Gut off Plum Island that can have some SERIOUS chop and swell to say nothing of force.

I'm curious Bob - in say, 5 knots if air - what kind if speeds are you getting on a reach with 265 sq ft of sail deployed? That's an awesome amount of sail area. This winter Ill be putting in stays and aground lines to facilitate a jib and spinnaker - I'm guessing it'll too out around 150 sq ft all sails together.

If I could maintain 4 knots in 4 knots of air I might forgo the motor. Don't know.


I can appreciate how small Key West is in the vastness of the waters down there. And like many an island - ill bet when you arrive at the shore the waters placid with utterly no indication to anyone on the beach what crazy conditions you had to go through to get there - lol - even moments ago. Islands are funny like that - particularly in the lee. I carry three GPS devices these days. A dedicated Garmin Map76, my iPod with chart tracking apps, and my iPhone with some really nice apps as well. I'm wanting to maybe just stay with the iPod though for tracking as You never know when you'll need a phone.

- I appreciate the post prior mentioning the Suzuki.

Thanks guys!

Pete


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:45 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Petewp61 :
Of course if you take the brand new motor and replace all the screws with stainless steel (probably about $15 bucks) that will help. As you know with rust, once it starts, you can remove it and repaint, but, it's just not the same. I did use rustolium paint when I re-painted everything several times, I also put a clear coat over everything, but it still rusted again eventually. Not using the motor enough, probably hurt me rather than helped. Since I had the motor head covered it wouldn't get splashed, but I'm guessing the salt fumes are what got to the metal, and not rinsing it off completely after each time out even if I didn't use it was probably a big mistake. Perhaps if you get a new motor and re-paint all the metal with a high quality epoxy, or baking enamel it might do better (I didn't do that, I let it rust out first, they played catch up from then on). Regardless of the rust, the motor is way less powerful than the Honda, and was never able to propel my TI over 5mph, I tried a couple different propeller pitches, the standard 4.5" pitch is obviously for a much heavier boat. The 7" pitch prop I put on made the boat faster, but the motor no longer had enough horsepower to get up to full RPM, so it was kind of a waste. Perhaps a 6" pitch prop would have done better. A standard pin prop like from a Tohatsu,Nissan, Mercury motor will fit, but you have to ream the standard 12mm shaft opening out to 1/2" dia (not a big deal), you can find the props on line for under $30 dollars. (here are the part numbers http://www.tohatsu.com/accessories/prop.html).
There are several videos of me sailing with the spinnaker on the Ultimate Tandem Island thread ( viewtopic.php?f=69&t=33720&start=60 ), I never had any problem sailing 1=1 with the wind even in low winds. Since my spin is a G2 type sail it is very puffy (like a parachute), so it's pretty much a one sided sail, and only good for downwind. When you get to 90 degrees (reach) it collapses pretty easily. In good winds it's a wild ride. A couple times I made the run from Ft Desoto to Egmont key in steady 20mph winds, and got the boat up to 18-19 mph for most of the trip. Down in Key West where the trade winds are always better I regularly get over 15mph on downwind runs.
However since putting the wing jib on, the spinnaker has become kind of useless, so I haven't used it in quite a while now. With wing sails you can sail faster than the wind so when going down wind, your sails are pulled in tight just like they would be if you were sailing into the wind, I have to admit going downwind with wing sails it is the oddest sensation I have encountered, it took some getting used to. I will probably replace my G2 spinnaker with a furlable code zero (like a screacher on a WETA), as soon as I get around to making it. If you look and any of the Americas cup races with the AC-45's , they have the code zeros, and they are able to use them with their wing jib (my wing jib is very similar to what they use on the AC45's and the AC72 boats (similar design), but just 1/100 the size, and didn't cost $500,000 dollars each ( LOL mine only cost $150 bucks).
Hope this helps
Bob


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:11 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
coachstevo :
Your Suzuki is the same weight (29 lbs) as my Honda. Actually I found it useful to have extra weight in the rear of my boat, it helps keep the bow up, and allows the boat to 'kind of sort of' plane when going faster. Getting the bow tip 3 or 4 inches out of the water seems to help.
I would be interested to hear about it if you try to powersailing (without another AI in tow of course), speeds with sail up, sail down, different points of sail, does pedaling help or do nothing, etc. Also if possible try powersailing on lower throttle settings like I do, basically I start the motor and throttle up to around 3 1/2 mph lock the throttle (about 1/4 throttle on my Honda), then introduce the pedals, then sails, anything you can share on performance would help a lot. At least on my boat by doing that I can get 3-4 hrs on a tank of gas (between 85 and 100 mpg, basically a dollar to sail all day)
I read thru the specs on the Suzuki and it looks to be a nice alternative to the Honda.
Even with the Honda I have to rinse it off after every use, so flushing won't take any extra time, I learned that one (to rinse the engine) by hard knocks.
Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:35 am 
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Location: Fairfax, CA USA
I'll try the 3.5 mph mode and see what we get, I've pedaled at 6 and get no extra speed boost, sail up definitely helps' even in light/no wind. Most of the time I am so pressed for time, the plan is get out to the fishing grounds as fast as possible, so I can fish and rush back. I have a free day coming up so that give me time to just play.


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