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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:46 am 
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Location: Clinton Lake, KS
On an Adventure Island.. Whats the trick?


This is kind of a dumb question as I was sailing well outside what I am certain is within the design parameters for the boat.. but what the heck right! I was having a blast!


The wind was legitimately blowing 25+ gusting to 35+mph.. There was a 3-4 foot chop.. I had a Haka on on the starboard side which I could hike out on and steer with my toe. Furling the sail most of the way had the boat moving forward GREAT, but couldn't make much ground to weather.. On a port tack without the haka I had to furl even further leaving barely 2ft of the foot of the sail unfurled.. Still moving along decent.. Just not enough power to crash through the waves to go to weather..

Furling that far just leaves the helm to unbalanced.. Unfurling in those conditions simply wasn't helping much either.. It sailed better with the drive out, but seemed to only be able to go to weather at all by giving it a little help..

It was a total riot no matter what.. The boat was probably under water as much as it was above.. I am totally bummed I didn't have a camera rolling..

Anything I am missing in order to accomplish more than simply reaching in those conditions?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:31 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
The laws of physics are insurmountable... As you have obviously discovered, there is a limit where drive from the sail is simply not enough to overcome drag from wind and waves on the hull and mast. As you saw, going to windward becomes impossible once the wind increases enough.

But as you also discovered, Island are awesome in strong winds as long as you aim in any other direction! :D :D

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:37 pm 
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Location: South Florida
Ron, please add your location to your profile--it will show up under your name on your posts--so that we know where you are sailing, in general.

Making any headway into 25+ mph winds is tough, maybe a 1 mph at best--not really worth the effort unless you are only trying to make a couple miles. Last time I tried it about 5 months ago, I had to make 11 mi to my first campsite. My trip started poorly. The first few minutes leaving the protection of the marina are captured on this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLLwW-brr04 After that start, I continued to battle 25+ mph headwinds for an hour or 2 before quitting, tail between my legs. At the launch, 3 guys were hanging around. An asian tourist was very happy to get his picture taken with me. Another fellow took down my name. When I asked him why, he said, "To give it to the Coast Guard when they are looking for you." There is always another day, if you survive the event.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:00 pm 
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Location: Clinton Lake, KS
Added location to my profile for you. "home base" is Clinton Lake, Lawrence KS, and Wyandotte County puddle near my house.. The first time I had the AI on the water EVER was in a very remote part of Canada facing a 7 mile sail in cold rough conditions to camp.. It was awesome...


"Not worth it"???? HA! :lol:

I could have gotten to weather in those conditions shown in your video at a satisfactorily pace.... Not easily.. but still That might have been gusting to 25 and 'flat' water 8) You were reaching... and had lots of places to go besides the seat.. Yet loaded with gear in much colder conditions with more on your mind than trying to break something on a inland lake having fun.. :P I won't forget the camera next time... I was constantly punching right through waves... putting me nearly underwater...

Keep in mind I am pretty much a nutcase on the water. The ONLY reason I was on the AI that afternoon is because I couldn't find anymore victims to take out on my H16.. (my first love :twisted: :twisted:) So I figured "what the hell! This should be hilarious!".... and by God it was!

I had trouble when reaching deep like you were in the video with the bow diving... So I simply jumped up and basically took a knee in the storage area behind the seat doing my best to reach forward and steer... Watching the mast bend off was pretty frustrating and amusing all at the same time. This is the problem though... I figured out blasting downwind, and it was such a riot I 'needed' to get back up to take another ride.. I would bet I topped 12mph or better several times pretty easy... Between surfing the waves and damn near what felt like trying to plane... Good grief it was funny...

Going back up when closer to shore I could see the leeway... It really was quite interesting.. It was darn near going sideways faster than it was going forwards. You can 'see' that on almost any sailboat if you look close enough.. but with the AI you couldn't miss it..

I am thinking if I stayed in the storage area behind the seat... but had some kind of hiking stick/tiller extension so I could be at that back and hiked over the ama's I could make some ground.. Slowly... but at least without peddle assist.. using the weight to load the rudder better and maybe having to steer a slightly shallower angle to keep it headed on a proper course, giving up less speed..


Or maybe I will sew up a "storm sail"...


Last edited by ronholm on Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm 
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Location: Clinton Lake, KS
And it should be noted here... Before I tried using the AI mast and sail I went out and "Kite-yaked"..

I have a 3 meter kiteboarding trainer kite.. I made a loop and had it hooked to a regular old sailing trapeze harness... I must say that worked surprisingly well although the kite being small was very fast and twitchy in those conditions, and because it is "ram air" kite not water relaunch-able.. It was tremoudous fun while it lasted though.. Earned several "ooohhhhsss and ahhhhhsss" from powerboaters..

:twisted:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:17 pm 
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Location: South Florida
Ron, that video was in the protection of the marina, but that "protection" only lasted about 1/4 mile. After that, of course, it was heavy chop as expected in 25+ mph headwinds along coastal Florida. Once away from the marina, I was definitely not reaching; I was close hauled as I tried to make my way to weather. You keep furling the sail, so that the bow is not driven into and under waves, but, of course, you just make less and less progress. As I say, maybe making 1 mph toward my destination--about 11 mi away--definitely "not worth it." I wasn't out for fun sailing, I was trying to make a campsite. There is a difference.

BTW, I'm familiar with cold and rough conditions--Miur Inlet, Glacier Bay NP, AK. That is my wife, Nancy, next to our red Klepper folding kayak. Our 2 friends, Ivan and Mary are in the foreground. The 2 fellows on the water are father-son acquaintances we met the day before. The winds would get up to 15-18 mph in the afternoon, that day. The water: about 37-38 deg F (2.8-3.3 deg C)
Image

In front of Lamplugh Glacier
Image

Glacier Bay NP is an absolutely beautiful place to kayak, if you ever get the chance.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Last edited by Chekika on Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:51 pm 
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Location: High Point, NC
The harder the wind blows, the faster my TI sails to windward. I don't understand these type posts. I routinely take my TI out in 35+MPH winds in the wintertime here and have full confidence I can sail anywhere I darn well please. I must be missing something in the conversation here.

Any additional "drag" is easily overcome by the additional power from strong winds acting on the sail. The more wind, the more power you have available.

The problem is going to windward in light winds - then you can't get enough sail power to overcome the drag of the boat. But even then, it has to be pretty light winds before that happens.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:59 pm 
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Location: South Florida
Clearly, physics is different in North Carolina.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:03 pm 
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Location: High Point, NC
It must be - the more wind, the more sail power that you have available. This is why boats can sail faster as the wind increases.

The problem the poster here has is too much power - that's why he has the sail furled and is out to windard. The sail is generating more power in the higher wind. The trick is to find the right amount of sail and boat trim to keep on going. The boat will sail to windward. In fact, it'll go like mad.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:35 pm 
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Location: South Florida
Tom, I wonder how well your boat would go to wind if you had a 2nd passenger + 200-300# of gear/supplies and were sailing into 2' chop. I think it is important for this group to realize that people sail in different conditions. Saltwater vs. freshwater. 2' chop vs. flat water. Fully expedition loaded and out for a Sunday sail. Headed for a specific destination vs. going wherever the wind takes us. Physics in NC vs. FL, HA, & AU. It makes a difference.

Keith

_________________
I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:38 pm 
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Chekika wrote:
Ron, that video was in the protection of the marina, but that "protection" only lasted about 1/4 mile. After that, of course, it was heavy chop as expected in 25+ mph headwinds along coastal Florida. You keep furling the sail, so that the bow is not driven into and under waves, but, of course, you just make less and less progress. As I say, maybe making 1 mph toward my destination--about 11 mi away--definitely "not worth it." I wasn't out for fun sailing, I was trying to make a campsite. There is a difference.

Keith


No I understand... I wasn't trying to be insulting or condescending.. Re-reading my post I don't know if I made it clear... and having a faced a similar situation in Canada my first time out I understand your situation was very different than me just being a fool having fun compared to trying to get to a campsite to have fun.

In part my curiosity was exactly because of this situation.. In Canada with all my gear aboard I made about half the distance before the breeze and rain picked up... and camp was straight upwind.. This happened just as I got a much larger section of the lake.... My solution then was to just blast across the lake and use the flatter water on the other side.. It worked alright.. and after about an hour the wind calmed down enough where more normal sailing was possible.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:41 pm 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Tom Kirkman wrote:
The harder the wind blows, the faster my TI sails to windward. I don't understand these type posts. I routinely take my TI out in 35+MPH winds in the wintertime here and have full confidence I can sail anywhere I darn well please. I must be missing something in the conversation here.

Any additional "drag" is easily overcome by the additional power from strong winds acting on the sail. The more wind, the more power you have available.

The problem is going to windward in light winds - then you can't get enough sail power to overcome the drag of the boat. But even then, it has to be pretty light winds before that happens.
Sorry Tom, I have to call you out on this too.

The stronger the wind, the faster the Island goes... until the increased apparent speed of the waves being sailed into (obviously) increases (as also does their relative size as wind increases, even in "flat" water), increasing the drag of the two hulls in the water (and even sometimes resulting in waves hitting the airborne hull), the smaller the amount of unfurled sail - and the greater relative interference of sail shape due to an ever thicker furled up sail around the mast, plus increased bend of the unstayed mast which sees more and more drive exhausted out through the slacker and slacker leech (I have a masthead halyard on my TI, and often see over 6 inches of mast bend in relatively moderate conditions).

All these factors combine, no matter how skilled the sailor is, until the Island goes slower and slower until windward progress is virtually zero.

This photo shows my 25 foot yacht, on a reach in sheltered waters, with 2 reefs in the main, and No.3 jib being fitted, in 25 knots (note the heel on the boat even with no sails drawing). I would have grave doubts that an Island could make much windward progress in those conditions.
Image

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


Last edited by tonystott on Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Guys:
I think there is a huge difference between lake sailing and open ocean sailing. As everyone knows the AI/TI only has a 'C' rating and is not rated for open water. There are several severe design limitations in the boat design that makes the boat Un-advisable to take out in open water without careful hardening of the vessel.
On lakes you don't get the waves you get in the ocean, waves take many miles to build up, as an example here on the gulf coast steady 25 mph winds with gusts to 35 is small craft advisory and the waves will be at least 7 ft. Down in Florida bay and the Everglades the water is only a few feet deep so there is much less large wave building.
Trust me large waves stop you in your tracks. The rudders on these boats is not big enough and it's near impossible to steer your course, you get batted around like a toy. You have to nose into the big waves or your in serious trouble if you don't.
I have my TI hardened for offshore, but would never go out in small craft advisory condition (wind over 20 mph), now I've been caught out in much worse and luckily got thru it.

Also when on a small island (Key West) if your south of the island and strong winds come in from the north you are totally screwed (next stop Cuba). If you can't make headway up wind you have no options.
Lake sailing is way safer and probably way more fun. As at least in my case I get beat up pretty good out in open water when it gets really rough.
I'm just sayin
Bob


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:04 pm 
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Location: Clinton Lake, KS
Chekika wrote:
Tom, I wonder how well your boat would go to wind if you had a 2nd passenger + 200-300# of gear/supplies and were sailing into 2' chop. I think it is important for this group to realize that people sail in different conditions. Saltwater vs. freshwater. 2' chop vs. flat water. Fully expedition loaded and out for a Sunday sail. Headed for a specific destination vs. going wherever the wind takes us. Physics in NC vs. FL, HA, & AU. It makes a difference.

Keith



While a number of things might help a TI get to weather a little better in a blow I have my doubts it would do it no problem in a honest 25mph+ let alone 35mph... I know what those conditions look like anywhere the wind has any room to kick up the chop... An 18 foot anything is not going to be sailing as they darn well please, let alone a kayak with a small centerboard.

When you are overpowered all that extra sail you can't use is slowing you down by creating drag that isn't driving the boat forward.. On the AI the more you furl the more you move the center of power forward meaning more rudder is required to sail the desired course causing drag... And then you crash into a 4 ft wave.. which not only kills speed but drags the boat with it as it goes to some extent.

Tom, it is true that more wind speed is more power.. The trouble is there is a limit to how fast that hull will go due to friction in the water and how far I can hike to hold it down... Even my H16 it is going to go to weather far better in 15-18mph of true wind compared to 25+mph, even if the water was magically perfectly flat in both situations.. Seriously, I had the thing nearly completely furled.. Just maybe had the top of the last batten just barely poking out for some air at the top of the mast... and the mast was still bending to leeward like crazy with me hiked out.. On the other "haka-less" port tack the ama was just getting buried without nearly a complete furl.. making it very tough to create any kind of real sail shape to drive the boat forward with any power to punch through the waves..

Even when I could hike to hold the boat flat.. The mast just folded off destroying sail shape.. I made it happen, but still.. Curious about what other ideas and technique ya'll might have tried.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:23 pm 
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fusioneng wrote:
Lake sailing is way safer and probably way more fun. As at least in my case I get beat up pretty good out in open water when it gets really rough.
I'm just sayin
Bob



The difference also is in the wave frequency... I think could handle 7ft waves 25-30 ft apart.. Or whatever.. Nice big nasty rollers.. Trouble on my lake is you can have 3-4 ft waves just stacked right up on top of each other... (like I am sure the right storm does to the ocean) It is tough to keep anything moving but a Kiteboard.. Reaching between waves it almost felt if I (like a nut) had the amas 'floating" in the waves with the hull nearly airborne in the trough. It was wild..

I would have never gone out to "play" if conditions were anything close to what they were on my lake in the ocean unless it was a sure thing it was going to remain an onshore breeze.. Worst thing that could have happened to me on the lake is a long walk on some nice pretty trails, and more that likely that wouldn't have happened as I would have been blown to the Marina on the other side of the lake and most likely found someone I knew to give me a ride.. So not much to lose allowing me to take a much bigger risk.


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