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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:10 am 
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Location: Galway, Ireland (formerly CH)
Hi all,

Got my 2015 AI a month back and done some sailing and fishing now just building my Hakas.
Absolutely loving this rig!

As I am usually on my own I was wondering in the event of falling off the AI while sailing what happens to the AI?
Lets say the sail is cleated, does it capsize due to sudden loss of weight from sailor on hull? (obviously depends on wind speed)
Or worse does it keep going into the horizon? (hope not!) ;-)

I am leashing myself to the Yak (10m line) because I was thinking even if it where with furled sail it would drift much faster than you could swim back to it I guess?

Was thinking of some kind of mechanism that would deploy a drogue once you fall off to slow it down but its just an idea at this stage.

Any experiences, feedback, opinions and ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Marius

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:45 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
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Location: High Point, NC
You can somewhat approximate what will happened if you fall off the boat just by letting go of the rudder. Some of what happens will depend on what point of sail you're on, but in most cases I suspect the boat will turn down and sail/drift slowly. I haven't noticed any weather helm on either of my islands so I don't think they'll round up into irons. Frankly, I have not actually tried this in full so my comment here is just a best guess scenario.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:59 am 
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Location: South Florida
MariusMarinus wrote:
Hi all,

Got my 2015 AI a month back and done some sailing and fishing now just building my Hakas.
Absolutely loving this rig!

As I am usually on my own I was wondering in the event of falling off the AI while sailing what happens to the AI?
Lets say the sail is cleated, does it capsize due to sudden loss of weight from sailor on hull? (obviously depends on wind speed) Or worse, does it keep going into the horizon? (hope not!) ;-) Yeah, don't expect your boat to hang around. Capsize? Don't know, but I doubt it. Even if it capsizes after you fall off (presumably from wind), it is not going to wait for you.

I am leashing myself to the Yak (10m line) because I was thinking even if it where with furled sail it would drift much faster than you could swim back to it I guess? Leash is probably good, especially if you are driving from the hakas; but, "a 10 m line?" That seems way too long. Too much chance to get tangled and tangled with you in it. 2-3 m ought to be plenty. The boys in Hawaii do this stuff all the time. Maybe they can chime in.

Was thinking of some kind of mechanism that would deploy a drogue once you fall off to slow it down but its just an idea at this stage. Whoa! Drogue that deploys automatically if you fall off? More line to get tangled in. That is way over thinking this simple boat. Not sure a drogue would do you much good anyway, depends. Considering that the water you are sailing in is on the cool side, your thoughts ought to include how to get back in the boat as soon as possible. And, then, practice your method in shallow water, near shore, with onshore winds.

Any experiences, feedback, opinions and ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Marius

While it is a good idea to prepare for the worse, my suggestion for solo sailors is "Never, ever, fall off!"

Keith

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:15 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
For offshore trips, I have a 10m line with a carabiner on one end to attach to my wader belt. In order to avoid tangles, I keep it looped with rubber bands, which I expect will easily disappear when tension is applied to the line.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:53 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
We are scuba divers, and used to use those cheap grapple anchors (two of them). As soon as we got out of the boat it became very light, even with no sails up, the boat blows away and just drags the anchors, we had to swim like crazy to catch it. Ever since then we invested in a good guardian g4 anchor, and check it often when underwater. So in answer to your question, if you fall out there is no way to catch the boat even in light winds. Same applies with kayaks btw, even without sails.
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:41 pm 
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Location: Coffs Harbour, NSW, Australia
Can happen and hope to Guya that you did not have the main cleated when you do.

Remember the 3 Oz guys on "KAZ-2" setting off on their trip of a lifetime all three managed to go overboard in the space of a few minutes in fine calm weather last year?

While under sail One leaned out to de-foul a line from the outboard motor, he slipped and fell over board.
His Brother tried to grab him and also went in.

The Skipper started the motor, turned upwind and went topside on the 41 foot Cat to lower the sail but the changing wind direction swung the boom knocking him in to the water as well.

The boat sailed away faster than the middle-aged men could swim.
There was nothing left to do but wait for the Reef Sharks which are abundant in the Barrier Reef area.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:19 pm 
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Location: Clear Lake Area, Houston, TX
I suspect the boat will go bye-bye and leave you floating there awaiting rescue! Tie yourself with a strong line if you think you might go over.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
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Location: Oceanside, California
Been there... when a trapeze hook failed, swam a few miles back towards shore. My boat sailed back by itself. Was warm water at least. Lucky for me someone on another boat spotted me. Would have been another half mile or so swim.

WEAR a pfd.
Keep fit, keep calm.
Wear weather and water temp appropriate gear.
Waders? Wear a wader belt. They will sink you if they leak.

I would be concerned about getting dragged, tied up by a safety line. They work better if someone else is aboard to assist. I have used them in off shore catamaran racing though. And can keep you with the boat. Maybe only attach when/during attempting an out-of-seat procedure... like the guy going forward to drop sails?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:44 pm 
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In another forum whose name I forget, they universally said to unhook leashes in a surf zone (and one other condition I again forget). The principle seemed to be beware of being dragged toward danger by an out of control craft, like being barreled then pulled toward wave-beaten cliffs or a rugged breakwater.

I even got concerned this morning seeing a TI apparently slipping towards mountainous offshore whitecaps. But with a telescope, I could see the winds were (unusually) sideshore and they were in windshadow of hills. My point is you could be flipped by surf off a friendly beach, but then dragged offshore by progressively stronger winds. A quick release or knife may be needed with leashes.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 18, 2015 2:49 am
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Location: Galway, Ireland (formerly CH)
Thank you all for your very valuable comments. All good points and comments!

I always wear a PDF and a drysuit so being dragged by the boat should still leave my head out of water, in case of any issues I always carry a knive and an emergency rope cutter (which should be mandatory on a boat with so many lines etc)

Yeah funny I do the same with the excess line coiled up with a weak enough rubber band that will release the line. Just seems safer having a 10m line you never know what happens. I agree in a surf condition it would be wiser not to be leashed.

Since it seems the general opinion is the boat will go bye-bye and not capsize I will definitely keep using the leash! ;-) I always tied myself to my previous sit on top kayak for the same reason of wind drift being faster than swimming ability (keep in mind swimming with a drysuit isnt very efficient ;-)

BTW a drogue is extremely efficient in reducing wind drift. couldnt be bottom fishing without one in winds above 15kph. I always thought especially on previous trips on a normal kayak to keep the drogue lose on top of stuff rather than tucked-in somewhere so it would deploy by itslef in case of a capsize and slow down the drift giving me a better chance of getting back. Gladly I never had to try this ;-)

Its cold around 15degC at the moment so with a drysuit you have more than enough time to get back in. But its a good point about practicing reentry..

Thanks all again for all your valuable input, really appreciated!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:51 am
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Location: Hervey Bay Qld Australia ( formally UK)
Me and my brother played about in some heavy surf in the North Sea, my brother fell his out of his SOT and it was off! It was 300m away before I caught it just, I'm certain the same would have been if it was a TI or AI. It was mid winter my bro was bobbing about for 15 minutes luckily he had a drysuit on...

I personally don't use a leash and neither do any other yak fishos that I know, they claim its dangerous I tend to agree, I don't want to get wrapped up in a leash attached to a capsized boat

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:40 pm 
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Location: Galway, Ireland (formerly CH)
Thanks for sharing your experience!
Thats exactly what I am worried about. Loosing the boat and being alone in open water. Your bro was lucky you where there, could have ended worse. I nearly always go on my own.
I agree with the risk of tangling but i carry to types of safety knives with me so worst case I could always cut myself loose...in theory ;-)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:36 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
mmiller wrote:
Been there... when a trapeze hook failed, swam a few miles back towards shore. My boat sailed back by itself. Was warm water at least. Lucky for me someone on another boat spotted me. Would have been another half mile or so swim.

WEAR a pfd.
Keep fit, keep calm.
Wear weather and water temp appropriate gear.
Waders? Wear a wader belt. They will sink you if they leak.

I would be concerned about getting dragged, tied up by a safety line. They work better if someone else is aboard to assist. I have used them in off shore catamaran racing though. And can keep you with the boat. Maybe only attach when/during attempting an out-of-seat procedure... like the guy going forward to drop sails?

Just a few comments Matt...
Leaky waders will NOT send you to the bottom unless the water entering them is somehow denser than the water surrounding them.
[youtube2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYwG52p4yjs[/youtube2]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYwG52p4yjs
I haven't tested this, but I would bet that neither Island would make forward progress towing a person. Looking forward to someone testing this!

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:56 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
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Location: South Florida
During my capsize a couple months ago, I wore my Kokatat dry pants with socks, i.e., dry pants with a 4" neoprene strip around the waist. I also wore some heavy NRS neoprene boots--they are heavy! While I was in the water getting things ready to right my boat, I totally forgot about them until I went to climb up on the boat and realized what I was wearing. I suppose they did not help climbing up on the boat, the extra weight, since the pants & boots were full of water; but, I did not think about them and got up. Once on the boat (on the ama & centerboard) I immediately removed the pants and boots before righting the boat. Afterward, it seemed surprising how little they bothered me.

I don't think anyone has ever done the test--we have talked about it--of tethering themselves to their boat and jumping off while under sail. Until someone does the test, I don't know that we can say much. Maybe the fellows in Hawaii, the home of the haka and sailing from the haka, can tell us their experiences.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:13 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Keith:
Just what you are describing, "falling overboard with a teather on" is getting me thinking.

What if I am sailing along with all sails out and cleated, the boat is all trimmed for lets say a broad reach, hiked out on my tramp to try and keep my AMA out of the water. In those conditions with the sails trimmed nicely, typically I don't need much rudder input (everything is fairly balanced). I lean the wrong way and fall thru the tramp breaking the clips in succession (this actually happened to me), fortunately I was able to grab the aka and pull my self back on board that time.
Now lets suppose I didn't catch the AKA and the boat sails away. My 8ft teather is wrapped around the middle of the rear aka brace in the center of the hull (logical attachment point). Now I would be dragging directly behind the boat, with the sails cleated and full open, I'm not envisioning my body dragging behind the boat is going to stop the boat, of course it will slow down a little but I suspect even being dragged at 4 mph, I'm not sure I would be able to climb the teather line hand over hand to be able to get back to the boat (thats a lot of water force).
The reason I'm discribing this scenario is because, this very nearly happened to me, I discribed where my tether line is attached, and the tether line length I was using at the time, when I fell thru the tramp.
My question is where on the boat would be the best attachment for the tether.
1: if attached where I had it, attached to the center rear aka brace, the boat will simply drag me behind the boat on center directly behind the boat. With me dragging directly behind the boat, and the sails cleated, my body dragging behind prevents the boat from rounding into the wind and stopping (actually makes matters worse).
2: should I attach the tether to the bow so if I do go over the boat will eventually round into the wind (nose to the wind). This would require a much longer tether, but if the line catches on anything in the boat on your way overboard you are back to scenario #1.
3: should I attach the tether to one of the outer AMA's so the drag created by me in the water turns the boat 90 degrees immediately. Of course the down side to this if the sails are cleated, is the boat will just blow sideways with the cleated sail acting like a spinnaker (no help).

Probably not a good idea to hook the tether line to your ankle like surfers do, you will definately get water up your nose doin that (lol)

I know for a fact that the boat doesn't stop when dragging someone directly behind the boat, because as divers we do this all the time when we are hunting for lobster. We tie a line to the rear center aka brace (about 15 ft long), then one of the scuba divers goes down and we tow them along and troll looking for lobster beds with the TI pulling the diver at around 4mph. Heck they even sell diving planes at all the scuba shops so you can steer up and down. I've seen dive boats pulling 4 divers, trolling along (we tried trolling with 2 divers, didn't work with just sail power).
So now I'm wondering what to do about tethering.
After thinking about it more , holy crap.... I'm goin to start clipping my FM radio to my pfd from now on (i usually just stuff it in the pouch of my soft cooler lashed to the tramp).
Makes you think
Bob


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