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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:44 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Tony:
I have a similar double bungy setup on my TI. But instead of a big honking metal bracket I just used a small piece of spectra rudder string in a cinch knot. Since I always have lots of things attached to those cleats on the aka bars ( ie... Spray skirts, boarding ladder, tramps, AMA bungys, etc) I can attach all my stuff and will have room for more. Looping the string over the cleat doesn't seem to take any longer than before. It's actually pretty amazing to me that the spectra string is rated at over 300 lbs ( each strand x 2 equals 600 lbs) yet that metal cleat you have in the pic looks like the ones I buy and the package says 530 lbs (less).
I've been running the spectra double bungy setup for over a year now with no issues, and am able to climb in and out if the boat by sitting on the AMA (which I couldn't do before). Plus when we are out snorkeling I have people sitting on the AMA's all the time now.
We pretty much use our TI as our mother ship where we launch from Higgs beach (on the south side of Key West island in Florida) and go out just off shore for the afternoon. I usually tow out our 4 person raft filled with coolers of food and gear, we also have a few inflatable kayaks that I tow out, along with other kayaks that people may have, we call it our party barge.
Actually I'm thinking about making a big sun shade (like an easy up) that we can erect once we get out there and anchored, ( probably a re-purposed tent fly).
We kind of do the same thing up here in sarasota but the destination is usually sand bars where we meet up with our powerboating friends.
We basically still do all the same stuff we used to do with our Sea Ray powerboat, just take us a little longer to get there ( lol). Instead of cruising at 30mph and spending $40 bucks in fuel, we cruise at 10 mph and it costs me a buck.
The really cool part is with the power boat we could only access 10% of the inter coastal (pretty much have to stay in channels). With the TI I can reach 90% of the areas.
I guess that makes my TI a po mans powerboat (lol). Sorry for drifting off topic.
Bob


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:20 am 
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Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Gee Bob, they are not really THAT big! :D . What I like about them though, is that they are easy to undo with any multi-tool, and as I now carry a couple of spares in my safety kit, it is a cinch to undo the shackle and unscrew the broken bungee and screw in a replacement. I would also suggest that the breaking strain of the SS shackle is more thn adequate.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:39 pm 
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Location: South Florida
Terrific "Wave Buster", Tony. And, both you and Bob have nice "double bungee" systems. My double bungee system is U-G-L-Y in comparison. Still, the one thing I like about mine is it uses 2 top hats, so every thing on my U-G-L-Y system is doubled.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:46 pm 
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How to Include Pictures (Images) in Your Hobie Forum Post--Step by Step Instructions

The Hobie forums are very well managed, however, they do not “host” pictures (images.) Therefore, you must store your photos on a photo hosting site such as Photobucket http://s239.photobucket.com/ PB is free up to a fairly generous storage limit. You must “Sign Up” initially. The Sign Up page looks like this,

Image


Once you are signed in, the Log In page looks like this. I believe you can use your "username" in place of your email to log in.

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Once logged in, Your Bucket page looks like this,

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Pick off the upper menu item “Library.” Your Library page will look something like this,

Image


Now you are ready to upload pictures to your Photobucket and insert them into your Hobie Forum post.

    • Upload your pictures onto PB. This is a simple drag (from your computer photo folder) and drop (into your Photobucket Library folder.) STOP! TIP: Before you load any pictures into your PB, it is a good idea to organize your photos into albums (folders). So, pick off “Create New Album” button, give it a name, and put your pictures into that. The majority of my PB pictures are in albums, but 264 are in my PB general bucket, and occasionally I have to look through all of them to find a picture.
    • Slide your pointer over a photo and you will see a "gear" icon appear in the upper right corner.
    • Slide your pointer over the gear icon and a menu will appear.
    • From the menu, pick off "links" with your left pointer button.
    • A window will appear with 4 URL options. Click the "Direct" link with your left pointer button--momentarily a "copied" appears. You have now copied the link.
    • Paste the link into your Hobie forum post.
    • When the "Direct" link is pasted into your Hobie forum post, highlight it, and click on the "Img" button above to complete the job. When your post is previewed or submitted, your picture (on Photobucket) will appear in your post.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:07 pm 
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Location: Salem, Oregon USA
Chekika wrote:
YakAttaque wrote:
I recommend buying the TI, for solo expedition trips, for these reasons:
1- A luxurious amount of cargo space for above-board dry bags in the forward area.
2- Increased waterline means increased speed (sailing fact), especially if balanced by seating yourself in the rear and your cargo forward.
3- Captain comfort, staying more dry and with less sea motion in the stern.
4- Pitch your tent on it! (equipped with tramps) incredibly comfortable and expands your camping options exponentially.
5- You can transport an unpredicted passenger when needed, which has happened to me more times then I can count.

I certainly have my own biases based on where and how I sail and camp. Therefore, I'm wondering.
    (1) Have you ever camped with your TI where there were significant tide changes, say greater than a meter?
    (2) Have you ever experienced significant wave action (like along a coastal area) when camping on your TI?
    (3) Would you make the same recommendations for a person who usually launches from a beach and prefers camping on shore to camping on a TI/AI?
    (4) Have you ever hauled your TI loaded with camping gear up a beach (> 5' vertical) to get it above high tide line?
    (5) Have you used an AI on camping trips?
    (6) Do you think you could carry enough camping gear/supplies for an extended expedition on an AI?
    (7) Do you think a tent could be pitched on an AI?
    (8) Do you think you could stay sufficiently dry using a dry suit or dry pants with integral socks & anorak top on an AI?
    (9) Would you make the same recommendation for a solo woman?
    (10) Would you make the same recommendation for a person over 70? 65? 60?
    (11) Would you recommend the solo TI over an AI for the 300 mile, saltwater coastal WaterTribe Everglades Challenge?

BTW, YakAttaque, I missed your videos which you posted about sailing on fresh water in Oregon, but I've caught up on them--excellent!

Keith


Keith,

Thanks, it's good to hear someone watches my youtube vids :)
A few of your questions seem to point toward getting the TI above the high tide line. I agree this can be a problem. I usually unload mine before hand, then lift one end and drag, drop, lift the other end, etc. until I feel comfortable with the height, then I tie it to something secure in case i misjudged or it's hit by a micro-burst. I've never attempted to sleep on it while it's afloat, so wave action isn't keeping me awake.

I've never used an AI, I do have a hobie mirage with a sail which I've used for week-end trips, so I know an AI is more then adequate, but for 7-days or more, the TI is perfect. I think you could pitch a tent on an AI, I'm not certain but I think they use the same tramp size. The TI weighs a ton, even with the caddie on, so if there is going to be a lot of land distance, no boat ramp, the AI would probably work better. If your wearing a dry suit, you will need to be soaked just to keep from overheating, I have one but only use it when its cold and I'm sitting in the front seat of the TI.

Being in Oregon, I haven't done the Everglades Challenge, but if I were, and I had the choice, I would go with the TI, because of the dryer ride and longer waterline.

In 2 weeks I start a 2 week-long trip from northern Vancouver Island, where there are 23 foot tides (2nd biggest in the world), almost all 'beaches' are rocks covered with slick seaweed, and one my have a small surf to deal with. My plan is to pack in such a way that I can offload/onload easily, to lighten the yak. I'll update on how it went.

YakAttaque


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:49 am 
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YakAttaque, I'm looking forward to hear about your Vancouver Island trip. I'm sure it will be interesting.

My concern with using a TI for serious solo expedition trips is weight. Period.

    First, my observation with people using a TI for camping is that they tend to bring even more stuff than AI campers. Considering that I bring just about everything except the kitchen sink on my AI, that is saying something. My rule when camping (which I should follow more carefully) is "Less is more!" That is the less you bring, the easier it is to pack/unpack, and the easier it is to find things. Those simplifying steps mean you can enjoy your trip more.

    2nd, you can easily bring everything you need for an extended camp trip on an AI including all your water--why bring more? Along Vancouver Island, you can probably find fresh water, which is not the case in the Everglades. Again, why bring more? The AI has plenty of room.

    3rd, using paddle pants with integral socks and an anorak, I can easily stay dry on my AI during any trip. If it is warm, I remove the anorak & splash water on the pants. I know guys who "live" in their dry suits during the WaterTribe Everglades Challenge. Your dry suit/pants must be breathable.

    4th, even the designer of the AI and TI, Jim Czarnowski, used an AI on his last 2 Everglades Challenge trips--that is a pretty strong endorsement of the AI on extended camping trips.

    5th, yes, the TI is faster and that is very nice, but, you pay for that speed over the AI in extra weight on the TI. When I do a solo camp trip on my AI, I'm carrying between 125-150# of gear & supplies/water. When I arrive at a beach to camp, I immediately unload heavy stuff--water in Dromedary bags, cooler, 1 haka (for a table), tent, and kitchen bag. When I begin to pull my partially loaded AI up the beach above the high tide line, my AI will weigh at least 140-150#. At my age, that is a tough. I time my arrival at my camping beach to avoid low tide. Still, I'm usually looking at hauling my AI up 3-5' vertical. With a partially loaded TI, my guess is you would be looking at pulling 225# and more up that beach--I know I could not do that. From your videos, Yak, you look fairly young--50 yrs maybe? Yes, you can probably pull your TI up a beach to get it above a high tide line. However, I question whether a woman or 65 yr. old male could do it.

Regarding setting up a tent on either an AI or TI, that can certainly be done and has been done. However, camping on an AI or TI along coastal Everglades (or any coastal region) has its own set of problems (hazards) and inconveniences. We'll have to have that discussion another time.

Keith

PS I forgot to mention that Dogslife (see another post about him http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=52088&p=238289#p238289) did his first Everglades Challenge in a Tandem--he did not finish, which is not unusual for a first timer. However, he subsequently bought and used an AI in the last 3 Everglades Challenges and set a number of records.

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:54 am 
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AI/TI Use in the Puget Sound Area of Washington State—A User’s Perspective


On another thread, (Broken rudder solutions, viewtopic.php?f=71&p=238144#p238144), Puget (aka Brian Heath)) discussed the problems of using an AI/TI in the beautiful Puget Sound area. I felt his thoughtful comments backed up by experience, might be useful to persons thinking of sailing and camping in the area. Highlights and bold print in Puget’s quotes are mine.

Interestingly, YakAttaque in a couple posts above has said that he will be doing a camping trip on his TI off the north end of Vancouver Island--even greater tide changes than those in Puget Sound. Presumably, he is planning to sleep on his boat. I'm looking forward to his trip report.

Puget wrote:
Chekika wrote:
Brian--how do you launch and land with such large tide changes? Do you camp with those tide changes?

Keith

First, a confession. I've never camped with my TI. Just day trips. Thus, big tide changes are not a serious problem. I also launch from a trailer and a boat launch. The only problem there is the end of the ramp at low tide. Last week the water was 10 feet away from the end of my local ramp when my wife and I got there. I backed the trailer over the broken concrete right at the end and out onto the mud. A big shove slid the TI off enough to put the back into the water floating. Another shove and I could lower the bow by hand. And, no competition from boaters with 4,000 lb boats.

Other times and other launches I've waited a few hours. One time while several of us were waiting, a man drove up in a pickup with an open boat filled with crab pots. Water was 30 or 40 feet from the end of the ramp. He backed down, then put on boots and walked around in the mud for 10 minutes feeling out the soft and hard places. Satisfied, he got back in the truck, backed out onto the mud - not in a straight line. Launched and drove back to the parking lot. Piece of cake. Not for me.

Current is the big tidal problem for me. Bigger the tidal change the bigger the current. Mostly that means careful planning to be going the right directions at the right times, and not go near the narrows with its 4 kn currents on a flood tide.

Pulling up on a beach on a day trip is not so much a tide problem as a wave problem with barnacle covered rocks grinding away at the bottom of the boat.

So, here are my thoughts about camping. I'd be curious to know how other Hobie Island people actually do it -- as well as sailing skiffs etc.

After kayaking and TI-ing for a decade around South Puget Sound, here is my description of a typical shoreline. The landscape is mostly low coastal mountains that are flooded so that the valley floors are under water. Some old beaches are superimposed on this, but mostly steep forested hills come right down to the water. At high tide the waves splash around tree roots, fallen trees, tilted trees undercut by waves, upturned stumps, and logs that broke loose from timber company log rafts being towed by tug boats to a mill. Trees around here are often 3 to 6 feet in diameter -- sometimes much bigger -- but those days are mostly gone.

That's all a way of saying that walking along a beach at high tide is difficult to impossible. Walking inland would probably require rope climbing gear to go up the steep hills. If you came straight into the beach with a TI the person in the front would step out in 1 to 3 feet of water. The person in the back would step out in 2 to 4 feet of water. Perhaps you could pull into a tangle of trees and stretch a hammock between branches over the boat. But wave action would grind away at the boat hull.

Low tide will give you 30 to 100 feet of exposed rocks on a fairly steep slope. There are a number of sandy beach areas -- but I'd never count on just finding one in the next 5 miles. Put another way, pulling the boat up on the beach will not give you any advantage for camping in most places. Anchoring out would mean swimming in.

Another problem: Most land is privately owned, including the beach. Simply standing there is illegal. However, most water front houses are way up on a steep forested hill with no way to get down or to see the beach. I think most boaters ignore the law for brief day use -- unless the houses are right down next to the beach. Those of course are the areas where there is more level ground, including level beaches and sand. That is, the good camping spaces were taken 100 years earlier.

Brian

Puget wrote:
Sheltered bays. There are a number of these around Puget Sound. Gig Harbor and nearby Wollochet Bay are examples. Gig Harbor was named because the entrance is too narrow for Captain George Vancouver's big ship to enter. So he anchored outside the harbor and rowed in on his gig. Or so the myth goes. It is a mile plus long and 100 yards to about 600 yards wide. Very sheltered. One side is the village of Gig Harbor and wall to wall marinas with 2 public docks with public restrooms. The other side is big houses. You can anchor anywhere, and all kinds of boats often do. Yesterday was a holiday and there were 15 or 20 boats anchored out. They varied from 12 feet to 60 or 70 feet. Some were rafted up. The public dock -- free tie ups for a week or so I think -- was pretty much full with some rafting up. Many - including kayaks and small wooden sailing boats - were there for a weekly concert at the end of the dock.

If you can sleep on your Hobie, camping is possible. With either a dock or anchor the tide change is unimportant. But, of course, nothing remotely resembling a natural wilderness experience.

I've often wondered about making a marina to marina trip around Puget Sound. I presume that one could pay a marina for a slip and walk or get a ride to a motel. Probably even easier in Florida than here to do urban vacationing from a Hobie. There are wonderful waterfront communities here in Olympia, Tacoma, Seattle, Edmonds, Kingston, Bainbridge Island, Vashon Island, and many other places. I'm curious if anyone has ever thought of waterfront hostels for small craft owners. Probably not enough money from our kind.

Sheltered bays, like sandy beaches, are great places to build houses and business, and towns and public parks. Thus, the good camping spots were taken 100 years ago. Wollochet Bay has a pretty solid residential shoreline.

Brian

Puget wrote:
Public Lands. While most of the Puget Sound shore is private, there are significant public lands. There are also timber company owned lands, and privately owned lands with no development. Thus, much of the shoreline does look -- well I can't think of the right word. It is not "wilderness." It is not even "remote", though a lot of it looks like that to the untrained eye. Thick forests over 100 feet high can hide a lot of development. Perhaps "natural appearing" would be a good phrase. Unfortunately, that is as good as it gets for much of the world's shoreline.

It is in many ways natural. Some of the forests along Puget Sound shores have 100 to 500 year old Doug fir, hemlock, and red cedar. Black bear are common. Saw a pile of bear poop on the sidewalk near McDonald's the other day. Saw a black bear near my house a few months ago. Cougars are around.

Anyway, much of that natural land is pretty much up a very steep hill above the water. There are a few exceptions in county and state parks -- Harstine Island, Penrose SP, Kopachuck SP, Deception Pass, for example. Camping is only permitted in campgrounds, and they are not at the waterfront. There is a "Water Trail Association" - I think that is the right name - that maintains campgrounds for kayakers around the Sound. I've seen 2 of the campsites and neither would work for me with a TI. One requires carrying your yak from an unsheltered shore up a steep winding forest trail about 50 yards. Great kayak racks once you get there. Great campsite for 30 year old muscle men with 40 lb kayaks.

The other requires crossing 100 yds or so of mud and rock at low tide and then climbing over a 5 foot bank and then crossing a lawn and going a few yards down a forest trail. Putting the camp in the forest keeps what could be a sheltered anchorage out of sight.

Brian


All AI/TI wilderness camping has its dangers. In Florida, it might be alligators/crocodiles/snakes/sharks/heat/lack of fresh water/storms. In the Northwest, like off Washington State/Vancouver Island, it is bears/tides/currents/storms/hypothermia. It would seem any AI/TI camping trip in coastal Northwest would need to be carefully thought out.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:11 am 
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Thanks for that compilation Keith! It has opened my eyes as to just how much we are spoiled here in our end of the world. I would have to describe the majority of the shoreline in the many lakes and bays as "almost deserted" by comparison.

Just as an example, my local lake, which is 74km2 in area, has just four "townships" on its shores (3 of which are just clusters of a few houses), and the local authorities have built 4-5 picnic spots on uninhabited islands, with covered picnic tables, open spaces for a fire, and eco-toilets.

And that is just one of the "civilised" lakes! Most have even more amenities for the waterborne camper as can be seen from the map
http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/mya ... l-park/map.

Here in Australia, we also have the rule that private property only extended down to the high water mark, which opens up[ many other possibilities for brief stops, even in areas which are fully built out (such as Sydney Harbour etc). Even there though, there are pockets of national park with deserted sandy beaches...

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:24 am 
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Yes, Tony, you Aussies have it pretty good. An island not much smaller than the US but with 1/15th the people (+ twice that many kangaroos.) Enjoy!

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:29 am 
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Keith:
I hate to interject politics into this but I feel Aussie's have it right (unless you are of Australian heritage, or of the same crown, it's impossible to move to Australia, this is the way most every other country in the world works, it's only the US that has totally transparent borders and anyone is free to come sneak in here as they please and live at the expense of the rest of us. If things were right Australia would be 1/10 our population (not 1/15th). My opinion this is way wrong and we are all dang fools for allowing this to happen. I should know I'm an immigrant myself and it took my whole family ten long years of hard work to get to America legally through the legal immigration process from Britain ( I was born along the way in Canada (same crown)), and am pretty upset that others can't do the same. The Aussies have it right in my opinion. Most Americans are either oblivious, just don't care, or are just plain stupid to the fact which is even sadder (so far beyond a screwed up system, the rest of the world just laughs at us, and our own un-doing).
Bob


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:06 am 
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Yes, politics is hard to resist nowadays in the US. The world is in great turmoil. Years ago I used to say, "the only thing certain is change." It is more true than ever. At one time we (the US) were fairly isolated. The Aussies are enjoying a fair amount of isolation.

Still, we've kept this forum fairly politics/religion free. I hope it stays that way. It is a forum about AI/TIs. Environmental issues creep in occasionally, because the boats are used in an outdoor setting.

People have their opinion, and we certainly have to give them that space.

Bob, your opinions are always welcome and appreciated.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:03 pm 
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Our politicians love over-population. They're willing to ruin everything that has been built up by nature and by man to be kind to anyone who wants to live in Sweden, even if the people coming is fundamentalistic analphabetics that mutilate their own women. They don't care if we neither can build apartments, schools or hospitals for the new comers and don't have professionals for the schools and hospitals. They don't care if they can't find people jobs. They don't care for tax payers. They care about nothing but being kind to foreigners. Even the party that once was conservative doesn't seem to give a (censored) about the people that inherited this country. Seems like they want global anarchy.

Let it be clear that it is not well-educated and wealthy people moving here. They're not even fleeing because they have been fighting for democracy in an oppressive country.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:06 pm 
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Trying to keep this reply politics free, here are stats for Australia's inward numbers for 2012-2013
Immigration intake 190,000 (68% skills-based, 32% family reunion based)
Humanitarian intake 20,000
We also have a separate immigration category called "business immigration", whereby people with significant investment funds can be issued with permanent visas.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:05 pm 
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Wow, even the gifted can learn Tony.

Hey, talking about learning, I have been fascinated with the Americas Cup and Bob's wing sail.
I just haven't been able to get my head around why the extra drive because a normal sail is
the same shape on one side as the wing sail so why don't we get as much drive.

I have read a few articles on the net but no-one is fundamental enough for the likes of me.

Then during one of those sleepless nights us seniors need to endure, this theory hit me.

So all you very clever people, is this theory correct?

Image

PS Only had visio available so hope you can follow the drawings.
PPS aren't wing sails an important part of expedition forums :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:43 am 
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Brian:
My thoughts exactly, I use my TI to get me where I want to go at the speeds I would like to go, with the destination in mind, regardless of the wind conditions and direction. I'm no athlete by any stretch of the imagination, and simply don't have the physical endurance to do something like the everglades challenge the old fashion way. But my thinking is why not just think it thru and develop your boat to accomplish what you need it to do (basically cheat by any means possible), working around your own physical limitations. Basically I have a pedal boat, why not make every ounce of energy I expend with my legs count for something regardless of conditions. If I could make the 300 mile EC trek averaging 8-10 mph (vs 2-3mph in very light winds)) regardless of the conditions and actual wind direction (or no wind at all), why not. With my TI the whole 300 mile EC trip would take between 3-4 gallons of fuel, which I can easily stow on board (under 25 lbs of fuel). One of the things on my bucket list is to travel the Mississippi, knowing my own physical limitations that would not be practical for me. With my current TI configuration I could easily average 8-10 mph for the whole expedition, traveling 100 to 120 miles per day vs 30-40 miles per day on a standard TI or kayak. I would think expedition guys would be all over this stuff, but their not.....


To build my wing sail I read and researched everything I could find on the subject for about 2 yrs before ever trying to make anything. I just looked back at all my research and documents, and can't make heads or tails of what the heck I have, though I still have every dimension of every aspect memorized (my curse), but how I came up with what I have I have no clue.
I did however find a couple articles that I had saved that must have been important to me at the time (but make no sense to me now LOL).
Here is one from a very bright guy named Paul Bogataj http://www.uk.northsails.com/RADUploads ... s-Work.pdf

Another guy who seems to know a lot about the subject is Tom Speers here is his home page http://tspeer.com/

Here is some of the dimensions of my wing jib:
Image

Basically their are 18 spars on the sail, what I did was measure the length needed at each spar position (because the sail is a triangle, each spar length is different). I made the widest point 12% back from the front, and the width at the widest point is 12% of the length. From there you just connect the dots across the control points. When in neutral (as shown in the pic above the wing creates no lift and almost no drag whatsoever, and just follow the wind just like a weathervane. Because of the air intake slits in the front the inside fills up with air and puffs out very rigid (like a balloon), you can press in on the outsides and they feel like an inflated balloon because of the pressure inside. To test the sail with the sail in neutral I went out and pedaled figure 8's out in the water in 25 mph winds, the wing didn't affect my steering ability hardly at all. Because the sail is rigid it can't flutter and flap like a flag even in 25-30 mph winds.
Here is a good pic of my TI with the wing mounted as a kayak sail (you can see all the crazy spars).
Image

Here is a video I made during development showing kind of how the jib works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-lucLodTQM
[youtube2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-lucLodTQM[/youtube2]

Here is a link to charts and a nice article showing the performance expectations from different sail designs
http://smalltridesign.com/masts/rig-mast_options.html
Of course since I have a fixed mast on my main, and the jib with the mast fixed in front of it I can only get something similar to configuration F upwind only (with both sails deployed). That's mostly what my boat is configured for (upwind performance in lower winds). My boat averages between 8-10 mph upwind in 5-8 mph winds with the wind anywhere between 10 deg to 30 degrees off the bow (everything was designed around that). Of course I have to supply supplemental power (ie... pedal drives, and/or motors) to create the forward motion that makes the chain reaction occur. The wing works no differently than the wing on a piper cub, basically on a plane your prop creates the forward motion, once the forward motion reaches a minimum apparent wind (in my case 6-7 mph apparent wind) then the wing begins to create lift (in the case of the piper cub, the plane lifts off the ground), in my case this lift creates a vacuum in front of the boat that sucks the boat forward, at a greater velocity than if it were not there at all (basically the wing works as an amplifier (like an air conditioner works (taking existing energy and amplifying it)). With the piper cub, if your engine quits you fall out of the sky, with my setup, you just stop (the boat rounds into the wind and stalls if you stop pedaling).

One important factor about wing sails that is significant on small boats like the TI is the heel moment (the force trying to tip you over) on a wing sail is less that 1/4 of the heeling force on a standard sail, basically what this means is even with the wing sail fully engaged in higher winds, it can't possibly tip the boat over (as long as you don't stall the wing, then it's like holding a piece of cardboard sideways to the wind, we all know the result of that). Actually in high winds what I often do is put my main away (furl it), then just sail using the 33 sq ft jib, which provides 'almost' equal propulsion in 12-15 mph winds to the mainsail alone (basically I can sail about the same speed with either sail up, but there is no risk of capsizing with the wing (I know I've tried LOL). Bottom line wing sails are about 30%-50% more efficient than conventional sails, so you can provide equal propulsion with a smaller sail, or more preferred you can put a much larger wing sail on a TI (~ 140 sq ft) and still not bury your AMA's (heeling moment). That 140 sq ft wing would be equal in power generation to a 225 sq ft conventional sail (disclaimer, the mast holder, mast, and hull on a TI can't support much more than about 100-120 sq ft. of conventional sail area without breaking, also the heeling moment would be greater than the AMA's can withstand (you would tip over)).

Of course the wing sails on the AC 72's probably cost between $3-$5 million dollars each, which is a little beyond my budget of about $100 dollars (what it cost in materials to make my wing jib). Yes it took a couple weekends of my time to actually make it in my garage with no special tools, just a layout table, scissors, and a my wife's sewing machine (without her permission LOL). Dreaming, reading, and learning everything I could about the subject cost me nothing at all, actually the design you see was my first pass, I'm dumbfounded beyond belief that it actually works ( LOL). By far the coolest aspect of the whole thing is even if there is no wind whatsoever (as is the case of most weekends when I go out), the dang thing still works like a champ since it creates it's own wind to work with, a totally un-anticipated bonus, that I didn't expect.


I don't consider my boat a sail boat, it's a human hybrid powered pedal boat, the sails are there only to amplify every pedal stroke I take into useful power, If I had two strong peddlers, I could eliminate the gas engines altogether, however we get pooped out after a half mile or so.
Of course at any time I can tilt the motors up, stop pedaling and just sail the old fashion way (6000 yr old tech (LOL)). But I much prefer traveling 8-10 mph vs 3-4 mph in light winds (in Florida it's 90 deg out there in the sun and with no breeze on your face, it's brutal out there baking in my big yellow fry pan).


What does all this mean, I have no idea, I just have a lot of fun using my boat, to be honest I don't do much on the boat anymore, basically just use it. I really have no future plans to do any more, though I have the designs done for replacing my main sail with a type 'F' wing main sail (from the link above), I just don't feel like spending the $150 bucks or so in materials, or waste the time making it, I doubt very much I will ever build it.
Currently what I have fulfills all my wants and needs and gets me out to where we want to go to go snorkeling and scuba diving, and allows us to travel at more than a snails pace in the very typical light winds we have where I sail every weekend (more often than not the winds are typically 4-8 mph). If the winds are higher, then the sea get too rough and visibility for diving goes down to zero, so we don't even bother to take the boat out if the winds are over 8 mph. I'm admittedly not a sailer, and don't aspire to be one. If I can go out all day spending about a dollar in fuel for the day, I'm good with that, I have an absolute blast with my boat everytime I go out. Here is a video my daughter made when we were down at our Key West place snorkeling on the 3rd biggest coral reef in the world (we live for this kind of stuff), and my boat is the means to get us there. (previously posted)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9NMZmFMTU4
[youtube2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9NMZmFMTU4[/youtube2]

Here is another video of us a couple months ago scuba diving in a big fishbowl (you can fit spaceship earth at Disney Epcot center into this aquarium and still have room to spare, we had the time of our lives). (previously posted)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwhuR250bdY
[youtube2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwhuR250bdY[/youtube2]

This is what we do.
Bob


Last edited by fusioneng on Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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