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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:55 am 
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I have not seen anything about the 2015 AI being longer or wider. The bow is evidently fuller, and the mast is taller, while the amas are longer.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:07 am 
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This is awesome!! :D I almost pulled the trigger on a PA because I wanted the better seat when fishing. I fish quite a bit with no amas or just one. I am so glad I did not. Can't wait to hear more details!!!

Anyone want an 08 AI.

Scott


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:32 am 
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The more I look at theses change the more I want to sell my 2012 and upgrade. Love the extra headroom under the mainsail. Won't have to lift the sail to look leeward anymore! Clip on Hakas would be the final touch. - Alright, there will never be a final touch. Just keeps getting better all the time! I wonder if the AI amas are now one in the same with the TI amas.. They look like it. Should make for a very stable boat. Faster too if the total sail size increases. What's behind the seat. Is that a case for the fish finder battery?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:55 am 
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vetgam wrote:
The more I look at theses change the more I want to sell my 2012 and upgrade. Love the extra headroom under the mainsail. Won't have to lift the sail to look leeward anymore! Clip on Hakas would be the final touch. - Alright, there will never be a final touch. Just keeps getting better all the time! I wonder if the AI amas are now one in the same with the TI amas.. They look like it. Should make for a very stable boat. Faster too if the total sail size increases. What's behind the seat. Is that a case for the fish finder battery?



That's the mirage drive well plug behind the seat.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:24 pm 
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Just ordered our first TI :D ! A 2015 in hibiscus. The new seats sealed the deal on whether or not to get a 2014 or wait. Looking forward to seeing what new features they reveal on the TIs.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:48 pm 
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Drewyaker wrote:
I just saw this article about 2015 Hobies going to vantage seats and Mirage Drives with roller bearings. I assume this will apply to AIs and TIs? Cost difference? Id like to know before I pull the trigger on a 2014 TI. Id love to have those seats on a TI over the current ones. Much dryer :D I'm guessing I should wait for the 2015s? :?

http://m.kayakfishmag.com/news/vantage-ct/


I just placed my order for a '15 TI. Price came in at $6,199 and the tramps went up to $385. Don't have much more details other than the seat and mirage drive upgrades. I also queried the dealer about a possible jib kit and they could not confirm anything.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:25 pm 
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The new AI amas are still about three feet shorter than the current TI ones. Hmmm, are they going to lengthen the TI oThe new AI amas are still about three feet shorter than the current TI ones. Hmmm, are they going to lengthen the TI ones as well?

Correction: The TI amas are not three feet longer than the new AI's, but 19 inches.

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Last edited by tonystott on Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:18 am 
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Wow. Does this lack of interest in the new AI reflect the general lack of interest in forums these days or a lack of interest in the new AI.

I would be keen to take one for a sail first before placing an order.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:40 am 
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I'm surprised no one has raised this yet, but has anyone noticed that the amas are forward raked? Apparently the bow is as well, though this isn't shown in the photo. Sexy!
Also, though I haven't yet read that the hull is longer, I'm betting it is. If there is 2' added to the mast, I'm willing to bet the hull is longer to. I'm also willing to bet the hull is a tad wider, partially to make up for the extra freeboard (so as not to distort its shape). Higher weight carrying capacity is also guaranteed, making it much much better for expeditions.

A lot of dudes are going to be upgrading their AIs. That said, it's clearly going to be a lot heavier. I reckon current/old AIs will still have their place, because these trimarans are heavy enough and the newer one is definitely going to present some issues for the physically challenged.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:35 am 
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Yakass wrote:
I'm surprised no one has raised this yet, but has anyone noticed that the amas are forward raked? Apparently the bow is as well, though this isn't shown in the photo. Sexy!
Also, though I haven't yet read that the hull is longer, I'm betting it is. If there is 2' added to the mast, I'm willing to bet the hull is longer to. I'm also willing to bet the hull is a tad wider, partially to make up for the extra freeboard (so as not to distort its shape). Higher weight carrying capacity is also guaranteed, making it much much better for expeditions.

A lot of dudes are going to be upgrading their AIs. That said, it's clearly going to be a lot heavier. I reckon current/old AIs will still have their place, because these trimarans are heavy enough and the newer one is definitely going to present some issues for the physically challenged.


The mast is 2ft taller, but the bottom of the sail is cut higher for more head room. The sail is bigger by 10 square feet. The hull is the same length.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:30 am 
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http://youtu.be/OkQNiAp3NwU

Video of the new AI at OR...more questions answered.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:36 am 
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As a designer I always regarded the TI design to be superior to the older AI design, that's why I selected the TI over the AI initially even when sailing solo. It looks to me that all the shortcomings in the AI design from my eyes have all been corrected and the boat would most now be desirable even to me. Here are the shortcomings and explanations:
1: The old AI sat too low in the water, and there was not enough freeboard (height of the gunwales) to suit sailing on rougher conditions. This has been corrected. Plus the fact you were sitting below the waterline.
2: The bow was too narrow and thin without sufficient flotation, this caused the old AI bow to dive in certain conditions (the TI bow also dove, but for a completely different reasons), by making the bow more bulbous this should correct that problem.
3: The front hatch on the old AI leaked much worse that the TI, the TI design is actually not bad, I suspect the new AI now has the same double seal design and the front hull section strengthened to not allow as much flex (like the TI front was re-designed in 2011-2012). All good...
4: The AI hull itself was too flexible, and couldn't stand much in the line of extra sails, etc, now that seems to be much stronger (close to the TI)....all good.
5. The drop down center board on the TI was way superior to the dagger board on the AI design, I'm happy to see this.
6. The AMA's on the old AI were too small, I'm glad they are now more in proportion to what the TI had, now the AI should be able to support the right amount of sail (the original 60 sq ft sail was too small and short to provide enough low wind performance. (actually my #1 complaint about the AI.). I always contended the sail should be bigger, and always can be furled in some in bigger winds, but in winds under 8mph it was a dog (TI had the same issues).
7: With the carrying capacity increased this will be good for us expedition type people.

The only reason for people adding a jib on the previous design was to try and increase the low wind performance and possibly the ability to point a little higher. With the now taller and larger sail and the larger AMA's to support it, I suspect the need for a jib has become a mute point.

I can't wait to see the changes on the TI, my wish list follows:

1: taller and slightly larger sail (around 110 sq ft).
2: Either slightly larger AMA (to support the larger sail), or a slightly wider stance (basically does the same thing).
3: better AMA attachments (double redundant bungy system), and some means to prevent AMA collapse from the nylon sheer bolt breaking and capsize risk.
4: slightly modified hull design to allow semi planing (round out the tail of the boat slightly)
5: Increase the weight capacity to 800 lbs with AMA's and tramps installed (pretty much all of us use that number anyway with 3 people on board). Even Hobies own literature shows more than two people on the boat pretty much all the time, that's what it's built and promoted for as a family boat, it needs to have the correct capacity stated to do that. Having dual plaques for both kayak mode and TI mode would alleviate that. (all this goes back to Hobie trying to protect it's sailing market by understating it's adventure lines of boats, not kosher in my book, they have to realize by now that their recreational kayak/fishing kayak/adventure market is ten times the traditional cat market with a whole new class and breed of people coming on board). Please don't mis-understand what I'm saying, I am not knocking the traditional sailing market at all, I feel Hobie is the strongest in that market and needs to remain so, I'm just pointing out, that this new breed of customers and market that they created themselves (brilliant move by the way), may not be the feeder to their traditional sailing fleets that they probably intended initially, they created a whole new monster of customers (LOL) way bigger than I think they ever imagined, now they need to feed that monster of their own creation by not artificially limiting capacities and performance (only my own personal observations and opinion) , these are totally different markets and people and need to be kept in separate buckets as totally different markets at opposite ends of a spectrum (to be honest they have done an excellent job so far). In my opinion Hobie can be the strongest player in both industries (I suspect they already are LOL)
6: If the mainsail were larger and taller, and better AMA flotation( item 2) the need to add a jib for lower wind conditions would be eliminated. As with the AI, the sail can always be furled in a turn or two in higher winds (as long as it's clearly written in the manual and instructions, this should be sufficient, pretty much everyone knows this already especially in winds over 12mph, you pretty much have to reef the sail a little (one of the strongest design aspects of the boats).
7: keeping the boat simple to operate for the beginners, yet still capable for the more seasoned adventurers I think is the key here, the focus should remain simplicity and ease of rigging and launch, they appear to remain focused on those aspects (good job Hobie)

If the seats are changing on both boats hopefully they are taking into account headroom (like on the new AI), having a 2-3 ft taller sail would alleviate many issues related to this on a new TI with the new seat.

In conclusion I think Hobie did all the right things to improve the AI, and if I didn't have the need to carry lots of passengers sometimes I would desire this new model myself. Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of owning both, so I will have to wait to see what changes are in store for the TI. Since I couldn't wait for the improvements on the TI designs, I went ahead and modified my old TI to my own specific needs, and am perfectly happy with what I currently have with the wing sail and the ability to sail into the wind with ease, the boat is specifically configured for the low typical winds we have in our area, hopefully the refresh on the TI design will make it more desirable for others to go out more often in lower winds (more often than not I'm out there totally alone currently, as nobody even bothers to go out in light winds), hopefully with a freshened design I will see more guys out there in the summer. I know there are hundreds of TI's and AI's in my area, but most weekends I'm the only one out there currently every weekend thru the summer (8 months out of the year).

I'm very impressed, good job Hobie.

my two cents

Bob


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:07 am 
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Quote:
they have to realize by now that their recreational kayak/fishing kayak/adventure market is ten times the traditional cat market with a whole new class and breed of people coming on board
Bob, according to Wikipedia, there are 135,000 Hobie 16s out there. I am not so sure your above comment is accurate.

BTW, the new AI has double bungees too. I suspect the seat in not much higher in its lowest position (you can see its greater recess from the raised flkoor), while there are "trapdoors" on the seat scuppers, with handles allowing opening will under way. It is all good!

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:42 pm 
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Tony:
You have to realize that 135,000 figure is over a 45 yr period, if you average out per yr that comes to about 3000 H16's per yr. In their heyday (70's and 80's H16's sold like hot cakes before PWC's annihilated the industry). If you look at the majority of the H16's on this forum many are 80's and early 90's vintage (these are extremely well built and durable boats (always have been, what Hobie does best), and last almost forever if you take care of them. As many as half of those 135,000 boats may still be working and being used (not the greatest thing for future sales, oops) Hobie doesn't release their sales figures but I strongly doubt they are selling more than a thousand H16's a year right now (that market is very mature, and with such a strong used market, I wouldn't expect that to change anytime soon). Another factor is fiberglass boats are quite complex, and labor intensive to construct, just looking at a H16 you can see the quality and workmanship designed into every boat (that all costs money unfortunately). However the saving grace is the parts market for them is probably thriving, and they likely make much more off the parts market than new sales (kind of a catch 22).

Now if you look at the recreational kayak market, in the US alone there are over 225,000 kayaks sold every year, this does not include the kayak fishing, higher end sea kayaks, or the adventure type expedition type boats like the AI/TI (all of which are very strong markets in themselves). Even if Hobies market share is only 10% that's over 22,000 kayaks a year (I'm sure their actual market share is actually much higher since they are unquestionably the number one name in the kayak market today).

It just so happens that every single one of those kayaks is designed from the ground up to be a very capable sailing craft (brilliant move on Hobies part), even if 90% of the buyers have no inkling of this fact, this still creates a huge boon and literally creates a totally new market that never existed before, of this new generation of people who have very little interest in traditional sailing, and don't plan to put white shorts with a white sweater over their shoulders and join the nearest yacht club (totally different breed of everyday people (most of us without unlimited funds BTW), just looking to get out on the water and fish, or adventure, or just go out and enjoy the water with the family. In the 80's most of this was all done with powerboats and PWC's (80-90% of the market back then) but who in the heck can afford that stuff anymore. Us plain old folks just want to get out there and do anything water related, and kayaking is the answer, and nobody 'I mean nobody' does it better than Hobie.

Now the kicker, every single kayak they make is a fine tuned sailing machine designed from the ground up. Just this fact creates a huge future pent up market for their more advanced products (Adventure boats, PA boats, etc) for all of these people who get it and want to do more (just like crack cocain). I'm sure you experience exactly the same reaction as me every single time I go out. Kayakers come up to me and admire my boat and nearly all without exception are saying man oh man would I love to have one of those. I have never seen a kayaker come up to a laser owner or a sunfish owner saying man would I love to have one of those, actually I think the opposite is actually true, if you poll 90% of the kayakers out there, I'm willing to bet most wouldn't have any desire to own a sunfish, or a laser, or a H16 for that matter (different breed of people), there are kayakers, and there are sailers, that's how the world works, most avid sailers want nothing whatsoever to do with kayaks and kayakers besides being the butt of jokes LOL (it's a two way street LOL). Hobie has somhow managed to meld two totally different industries (actually 3 or 4 is you include all the sub factions) into one giant happy family, good for Hobie.

As far as manufacturing costs go, I'm an expert in manufacturing, and believe me I know of nothing more profitable than taking $100 worth of plastic, spending a couple hours molding it, then another couple hrs assembling it vs lay up fiberglass (no matter how you do glass it's material and labor intensive, as I'm sure you know this as well as I).

two more cents
Bob
Of course my opinions are my own.

edit: I can't imagine anything more Hobie could do to satisfy my craving for more (just like crack cocain) than what they are currently doing with their adventure line of boats, totally unique to the market, and I'm sure in higher demand than anything else in the marketplace today. You can tell that from the TI re-sale market (basically there isn't one). The monster Hobie themselves created BTW, they are in a totally new territory never ventured upon before. Good for them.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:34 pm 
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coachstevo wrote:
http://youtu.be/OkQNiAp3NwU

Video of the new AI at OR...more questions answered.


I was impressed with the Hobie product designer Jason's reasoning for the AI improvements - more power. :o

Could the improvements to the AI carry over to the TI? As a future TI owner I am holding my breath in anticipation. :shock: Especially if the TI improvements help for better sailing in light winds which I expect on my local lakes. :D


Last edited by Mark the Shark on Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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