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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:37 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:17 pm
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Location: Pahoa, Big Island
I got stopped by the local DLNR yesterday. They told me that I had to register my AI being that it is a sailboat over 8' in length. I told them it 's a kayak. I was told that if I was only peddling yes, but once under sail power it's classified as a sailboat and it needs the sticker. I was wondering if anyone out there has run into this situation here in Hawaii or anyplace else for that matter?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:00 am 
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Location: Franklin, TN
Yea, Tennessee and Texas requires registration, however they have never stopped me to check it out. Numbers work great on the outriggers, and when your using it as a kayak there not there. Thanks, Ray J

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:39 am 
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I have been wondering about the same thing out here in California. Any California sailors know if the stickers are required?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:04 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
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Location: Maui, Hawaii
Our dealer on the big Island and us on Maui called DLNR and were told that if it's a kayak, even with a sail, it does NOT need to be registered. Aloha Dan on the Big Island got stopped a couple of months ago and was also told he needed to be registered. Some seem to make it up as they go along?

Still unregistered in Maui,

Kayaking Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:48 pm 
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Location: Newport, NH
New Hampshire requires registering the AI. When a sailboat is underway by motor power, it must follow motor boat rules. Likewise with a kayak under sail, it must follow sailboat rules. If the sailboat is between 12'and 20', you only have to display the registration sticker and not bow numbers. I heard rumor that NH is trying to mandate registering kayaks also.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:53 am 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
The officer is in correct.

Check the code. Particularly the definition of a sailing craft.
The AI doesn't fit, pedalling is still (manually) the primary source of power.

DLNR

http://hawaii.gov/dlnr/dbor/borrules.htm

From there go to:

http://hawaii.gov/dlnr/dbor/rules/Boating2.pdf

Scroll down to Page 11

"Sailing vessel" means any vessel propelled by sail only.
Every power-driven vessel which is under sail and not under
power is to be considered a sailing vessel, and every vessel
under power, whether under sail or not, is to be considered a
power-driven vessel.

The AI is NOT sail only. And it's not power driven.

Does it fit the exemption on page 15?

7) A vessel manually propelled.

That's it's primary power.

The DLNR get the sailing part confused with the paragraph 8 exemption sailing craft under 8 feet.

The key here is the AI does not fit the definition of a sailing vessel.

I carry a copy of the code around with me. as the DLNR can be a bunch of
SOBs at times.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:56 am 
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Location: back in TX Inks Lake near Burnet Tx
I used to have that problem in Texas, fortunatly officialdom is less of a problem in the Islands.

John F


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:21 pm 
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Location: Pahoa, Big Island
AlohaDan wrote:
The officer is in correct.

Check the code. Particularly the definition of a sailing craft.
The AI doesn't fit, pedalling is still (manually) the primary source of power.

DLNR

http://hawaii.gov/dlnr/dbor/borrules.htm

From there go to:

http://hawaii.gov/dlnr/dbor/rules/Boating2.pdf

Scroll down to Page 11

"Sailing vessel" means any vessel propelled by sail only.
Every power-driven vessel which is under sail and not under
power is to be considered a sailing vessel, and every vessel
under power, whether under sail or not, is to be considered a
power-driven vessel.

The AI is NOT sail only. And it's not power driven.

Does it fit the exemption on page 15?

7) A vessel manually propelled.

That's it's primary power.

The DLNR get the sailing part confused with the paragraph 8 exemption sailing craft under 8 feet.

The key here is the AI does not fit the definition of a sailing vessel.

I carry a copy of the code around with me. as the DLNR can be a bunch of
SOBs at times.


"Sailing vessel" means any vessel propelled by sail only.
Every power-driven vessel which is under sail and not under
power is to be considered a sailing vessel...
-----------------------------------------------------
"Power driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery
Page 10 states"
"machinery means all internal combustion engines located within the vessel and all motor or mechanical devices capable of propelling vessels."
Could the pedal drive be considered a mechanical device?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:48 pm 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
I doubt it. Your manually propelled whether it's with the feet and mirage drive, or paddling.

Mechanical power IMHO refers to alternative egines, perhaps electrical. Power is the key word versus manual.

BTW I'll substaniate recolon's statement.
Kelly Harrison the Big Island Hobie dealer has checked with DLNR honcho in Hilo. Exempt.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:27 pm 
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Location: Pahoa, Big Island
That's good news!
I'm going down to the DLNR office tomorrow to get it straight from the horse's mouth. That statement concerning "mechanical devices capable of propelling vessels" is ambiguious and open to one's interpretation. Bottom line is I don't like being hassled out on the water, and I wanted other opinions before I go down and talk to the authoraties. Thanks for the feedback.
Congrats AlohaDan for that crossing, that is major...and maybe a little pupule :wink: I know Kelly would be the one person to attempt that with.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:43 pm 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Don't do it!! You'll just get some muckey up to stir the pot. Breaucrats live on this interpretation stuff.

Just carry the regs with you in a sandwich baggie. If your stopped again (odds against it) just show the officer the regs and have him contact Kelly.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:24 am 
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Location: Pahoa, Big Island
With all due respect,
Since Kelly called and talked to the head honcho at the DLNR (I'll email Kelly and tell him my intentions) and got the exempt status, you'd think they'd verify that with no problem.
I don't think telling an officer to read the regs as he's about to write you a citation is good strategy. Besides why should I carry the rules when I'm out enjoying the ocean.


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 Post subject: Yada Yada Yada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 8:54 am
Posts: 61
Location: Albuquerque
So, the kayak v sail rears it's head again...

Guys, as your token LE AI rider let me just tell you it's not that big a deal to support your local/state registration system. The numbers give the states back money to use for docks, ramps, access roads to your favorite launch and it's upkeep. The titling process also gives you the ability to deal with your insurance company on a nice footing should your vessel be stolen (you just sign over the title to them) . Also on inland waters you don't have the Coast Guard just your local patrol goups for SAR and just where do you think the $$$ for that support comes from?

The vessel registration number is another way of ID'ing your boat from others as well

Those Texans are all alike in their libertarian bent .... but ya do have some good Aggie football...womped our Lobos pretty good.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:10 pm 
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Posts: 615
Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Guys, as your token LE AI rider let me just tell you it's not that big a deal to support your local/state registration system. The numbers give the states back money to use for docks, ramps, access roads to your favorite launch and it's upkeep.

DLNR coughing up $$: roll: :lol: Give me a break. In Hawaii? It's bad enough for boats, etc in Honkohau Harbor let alone the wretched ramps in remote spots. Most other harbors same way.

Also on inland waters you don't have the Coast Guard just your local patrol goups for SAR and just where do you think the $$$ for that support comes from?

I believe there is one pond on Oahu that's big enough to fit this criteria. A small row boat might be enough. Not very applicable.

You can thank your lucky star there are enough libertarians to prevent this country from going completely socialist. Although I don't know how long we will be able to hold out.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 8:54 am
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Location: Albuquerque
Yes I did see the lousy state of virtually all of your WWII dock spaces.
It's likely why no one stores a boat even for fun on Maui on the water.

The remoteness is kinda cool for you but the true socialists are those cruise ships owners who don't pay a great dockage fee yet i guess get to suck up the funds from the boat funds in Hawaii (haven't checked that for sure but you could).

You can be as fun and Ann Rand as you can get but it doesn't get you squat for facilities or shelter harbor. . if you want to play ante in.

For myself, I paid the fees and got the service as well in New Mexico with virtually every lake with a ramp and courtesy dock and very important...the toilet.


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