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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:20 am 
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Location: Venice, Florida
It was not my intent to "BASH" HOBIE. This forum attests to the company's desire to hear and address it's customers concerns.

The "primary" purpose of my post was to insure this issue wasn't just dismissed and left to dry up and blow away in the wind...as if it didn't matter. It was to provoke and stimulate just the kind of dicussion that we see here. Roadrunner reminded us of the "dual use purpose of the AI" and explained why the current hull design was the best way to go. Stringy's post showed a removable bow plane that might be the easiest and less costly fix because it wouldn't require a major hull modification. Chekika's original post showed an upturned ama a company added to prevent their racing boat from diving. I think this is exactly the kind of input HOBIE wants and needs...they certainly can take pride and satisfaction in what their defenders have stated so strongly...and that too is a good thing.

As for my rebuke of Matt, all I can say is, if you've ever tried to teach a pig to sing, only then can you understand my level of frustration...and HOBIE deserved better.

Thanks for your input.

W. A. Waller





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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:54 pm 
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Polecat wrote:
[The "primary" purpose of my post was to insure this issue wasn't just dismissed and left to dry up and blow away in the wind...as if it didn't matter. It was to provoke and stimulate just the kind of dicussion that we see here.

W. A. Waller



Polecat: Having been a reader of the AI Forum for over two years now, I feel confident enough to say Keith would have taken care of himself using his persistant manner until he was satisfied with the results. This all could have been accomplished without using the creepy tone of a Jack Nicholson movie you inserted into this thread.

Keith: Minus Polecat's anger, interesting thread.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:25 pm 
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Fly'n C Lion

Point well taken...Keith emailed me saying the same thing. You're right. I was over the top. Forgive me, but I never learned how to "tap dance" and finally gave up trying. I Bad!!! :oops:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:36 pm 
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Polecat, your loyalty to Keith is admirable and you obviously just misinterpreted Matt's comments. I've had the pleasure of meeting Matt several times and like Keith, he's an absolute first rate guy. Matt is also a great advocate for us on the forum and not timid about presenting our issues to the company from what I understand.

I'm a fellow sinner, having made an ass out of myself more than once, and have fortunately managed to hold my tongue on few other occasions. If you can see your way to taking the high road (regardless of what you actually feel), it almost always turns out to be the best policy! No tap dancing required. 8)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:56 pm 
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Thanks Roadrunner,

Believe it or not I've bit my tongue many times before on Matt's "Not a problem...it is what it is" responses. When it happened to me I let it go, but when it continued with others, and then with Keith, I thought someone should speak up.

This a great forum. It gives us owners and prospective buyers a lot of comfort to know answers to almost any question can be found right here. Most questions are answered by the owners. And, the best answers most often come from owners. Since the "Diving" issue has been around for awhile with no response from HOBIE it was only matter of time before someone asked HOBIE about "the problem" again.

IMHO, I didn't see any real conscientious effort in Matt's "initial" response to try to answer Keith's question. Even his final remarks saying we might..., or maybe in the future we'll.... seemed to come grudgingly and fell short of what I expect from HOBIE. I appreciate your loyalty and support for Matt...but isn't his job to answer these questions...without attitude.

Whatever road we take Roadrunner I hope it gets to a point where HOBIE decides on the best way to reduce diving that they stand behind and support.

Thanks,

Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:19 am 
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I think there's considerable creative vision for the AI represented here among forum members. Hobie's vision of the AI seems to me to be consistent: the AI is a very safe, easy to operate, inexpensive, non-threatening, transportable, family fun boat, or a fishing kayak with a sail rig. Such a boat may seem incongruous from a company with such a reputation for speed and performance boats, but it seems to me that the AI is now already what they imagine and market. They seem to stay on message when they advertise it and write about it. If there's no spray skirt from Hobie, perhaps its because they don't wish the boat to be associated with chop and speed.

It's too bad that it isn't apparent that within Hobie there is any agency that would be responsive to the broad desire and the volumes of excellent suggestions and criticisms of the boat expressed in this forum that could serve as a basis for taking the AI up the ladder in performance and speed. Wouldn't it be nice if within Hobie there was a group that does for the AI what Mazdaspeed does for Mazda? Such a shop could count on a steady, significant flow of cash from people like me (and I'm sure from many others) for all sorts of mods: redesigned pontoons, water tight hatches, performance sails, custom sails, wave deflectors (or even redesigned hulls), jibs, aka seats, and on.

Hey Hobie, I've got the cash baby. Come and get it! :)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:00 am 
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Polecat,

Quote:
IMHO, I didn't see any real conscientious effort in Matt's "initial" response to try to answer Keith's question. Even his final remarks saying we might..., or maybe in the future we'll.... seemed to come grudgingly and fell short of what I expect from HOBIE.


This issue is quite clear to me and Hobie, so perhaps I didn't write enough about how I "understand"... How I "know what you have experienced", but I have answered questions on this subject before, so this is not a new to me with the Chekika post on the subject. The AI product has been out there for over 3 years now and has been very well received, as is. What I read in the Chekika post was an assertion that Hobie had a "problem" and I was compelled to respond. What I stated in return is the reality of what this is... it is simply a sailing characteristic of this model. When you come in guns-a-blazing and demanding that something needs to get done and this is now a "problem" ... that got my attention. It isn't fair to accuse us of a failure to properly design this product for the purpose and conditions that you choose to sail. Everyone's experience is different and it is impossible to foresee and to design a sailing product for all extremes. Understand as well, I don't appreciate the personal nature of your tactics.

You say my "effort" is lacking somehow? My "job" at Hobie is not answering posts although, I now have over 4,500 posts and responses in these forums. More than anything else, I do this out of the love for the product. I have personally built these forms up from nothing to what they are now. Yes, most posts here are answered by users. That is what a community forum is all about. I try to review ALL of the forums for topics that need specific input from the company when it is possible for me to spend time here. I also review all of the sailboat issues on a regular basis, but I can not read every post due to time constraints. When threads get long... I don't always keep track of the directions they turn. As many know... I also moderate the forums and review posts on my own time on evenings and on weekends in an effort to make the experience here as smooth, and helpful for those that need help 24-7 and come to the forums to get it... porn and spam free too. I have heard from many others that this type of direct company involvement in forums is very rare. Yes, as this thread shows, I expose myself to personal attack at times, but the goal to me is a better experience on Hobie products and, that, I feel is worth it. I gather a lot of information here that gets transmitted to the company for review and lots of that finds its way into future products and product changes.

What I "officially" do at Hobie: I am not a forum clerk. I am the Director of parts and accessory sales. I am also the Warranty department manager and technical issues manager. I have a hand in design of products as do most of our top staff. My experience is as a life long boater and sailor, Hobie (16) owner since 1976 and working with a dealership starting in 1978. Then the factory managing warranty starting in 1988. I have sailed, built, repaired and raced (up to National and World level) just about every Hobie product we have made. I have extensive experience with every kayak product as well and that includes lots of time on the AI. I also own and surf a Hobie Maui, so I truly paddle, pedal and sail Hobies. I have a LOT of experience with the products and I know how to sail.

Polecat, I try to get clear and informative information to Hobie owners through these forums... that is my purpose, to help make their experience better if possible. I try to gather new information and opinion where it can help Hobie do a better job. I will state the facts when needed to defray misconceptions. That is what I have done here, but rest assured, I do listen.

I appreciate the passion that we all have for this great product and will strive for more accessories and improvements where possible. Everyone must understand that not all ideas are practical or possible in short term or, in some cases, possibly at all. What we WILL do is continue to develop the Island concept. Its a good one.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:21 pm 
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THANK YOU Matt for all that you do for us!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:26 pm 
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What Bob said!
Matt once responded to a question of mine while he was away on holidays. 8)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:50 pm 
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Matt, it's been my experience that when you have to deal with a rude or belligerent customer, it's usually best just to let them have their say and move on. Once you start arguing with them, you are playing in their sandpit. Your track record on the forum speaks more eloquently than anything you could post.

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Last edited by chrisj on Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:02 pm 
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Thanks for all you do Matt!

Ron

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:11 pm 
Hi Matt,
I would buy a sprayskirt and an attatchment to keep the bow from diving if Hobie makes them available. Im not sure if the Tandem will dive as much. I would personally rather ad these things rather than have more rocker. I think less rocker means more speed right ? I like minimal rocker, especially in a kayak because I don't like the wind catching the hull. I do some times like to dive through the waves, but with the ad on pieces I could do both ! No design will make everyone happy, but I think it's great to have some affordable options so that we can custom taylor our boats to the type of sailing we like to do. I always seem to modify most everything I get in some way. I really appreciate being able to have some input in this whole process.I don't expect my idea's to be put into production nessesarily, though that would be neat. But I also understand that our idea's must be good marketable ones or they won't come to be. They still may not anyway. Why ? because I'm not the CEO of Hobie I guess. Maybe they would let me be CEO for a day ? If so, let them know I'm available... LOL.
Max Houston


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:41 pm 
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I think a bow plane / foil has possibility as an accessory for the AI sailing in these conditions. It depends on the type of manufacture and attachment as to how that might go. It might work as a blow molded / roto molded part, but the cost of that type of tooling is prohibitive. Glass parts are also costly due to labor. We have thermal forming capability, so maybe a two part hammer head (hollow) shape of some kind could work. This would have to be added to my development wish list for our factory engineers. I have asked them to consider it.

I do have concerns about the forward spray shields. Forward trampoline areas have a tendency to exacerbate the bow down action in swells. I experienced that in testing our 21 footer in the early 90's in big steep swells sailing in Key Biscayne Bay, Miami. The trampoline had a fine mesh and nearly caused my boat to pitch pole. We went to a wide mesh to allow drainage still, the added surface area is not good in rough seas where the bows dive down into the backs of swells while running downwind. That has been our biggest hold up on something like it. We have tried MANY options already.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:06 pm 
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I've buried the bow and ama of the AI and had the boat stop dead in its tracks--not good for speed or racing.

It seems a bow plane/foil similar to that Stringy pointed out for the Hobie 14/16 (part #30110 in current sail cat catalog) would do the job. It would just need an appropriate attachment for a rotomolded Adventure hull. Ideally, as with all things Adventure Island, it should be easily attached and removed.

All rocker is not bad. The OC1 is one of the fastest hand-propelled boats around.
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I do think some redesigning of the amas would make the boat less prone to diving in chop without affecting the speed significantly. Hobie does not have to do anything to the Adventure hull to reduce or eliminate this problem.

Adjusting the attitude of the hull to that of the amas could have a favorable effect. I mean adjusting the horizontal plane of the hull relative to the horizontal plane through both amas. If the horizontal plane of the hull were tilted upward, relative to the plane through the amas, it would reduce diving. This is more of an engineering solution to the problem, but in a preliminary version one would simply put some spacers under the rear x-bar. The current small size of the amas may not, literally, support this solution.

Thanks for your help on this issue, Matt.

Keith

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Last edited by Chekika on Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:29 pm 
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So, can one of you people who are knowledgable about boat dynamics explain why a bow plane doesn't exacerbate the bow down behaviour as Matt describes for forward trampolines? That is, once the bow does become submerged, why doesn't the bow plane inhibit it from resurfacing?

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