Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:39 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 186 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 13  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:52 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 1862
Location: South Florida
(I've edited this post--others have pointed out that my comment to Skymax was a bit out of line. Chekika)

Skymax, I don't feel you are contributing when you tell people to get another hobby. People you are referring to have invested in their boats, and they enjoy them as much as anyone else. When they suggest that there might be modifications or accessories to add to the performance of the boat, they are trying to be constructive. If Hobie did not have this forum, we would never hear of any of this. It is to Hobie's credit (and, I think, their benefit) that they put up w/ some of this. They are a company that listens to their customers and, within business constraints, seems to try to do what is right.

I'm done with this thread...(well, almost.) I think Matt understands our concern and request. Good video and pictures, Matt. Thanks.

Skymax, in response to your comment about kissing up to Matt, I appreciate his contributions to this forum. There have been numerous times when I was at odds with him, and I have told him so. Check my posts in T-n-S hatches, AI leakage, aka corrosion, etc. Also, check early in this thread, when I disagreed w/ his response. By the same token, I give him credit when he posts something I like. Most of us need to know our efforts are appreciated, especially if we go that extra mile.

Keith

_________________
I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Last edited by Chekika on Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:54 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2229
Location: Maui, Hawaii
Let's keep it civil!

This is obviously a touchy subject for many. I'm in the middle. I see these conditions often, but between sailing at a 45 degree to the wave, and the sprayskirts, I don't nose in often anymore.

But, when Hobie sells a wave deflector, I would buy one to try, and if happy, probably buy one for each AI. I've tried to design one, in conjunction with my sprayskirt, but have not been happy with what I have come up with.

Any accessory that Hobie comes up with that can benefits some of us (even if not me) is fine by me.

_________________
Image
http://KayakingBob.com - - - - - Hobie Island Sailing since 2006 - - - - - 2011 & 2012 Hobie AIs and a 2012 TI


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:39 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:04 pm
Posts: 74
wow..i just put myself through this thread and find myself sitting here shaking my head...

it's physics gentlemen...the sail is pushing the bow of the AI into the water because of wind pressure pivoting the mast where it enters the hull...i mean really...

we know this happens and some owners find themselves in situations where it becomes an issue...i like what brett (shufoy) has done with that nose piece and may be an option i adopt at a later stage...although this has not been a problem for me

hobie has demonstrated their continued development of their products by how they reacted and dealt with the rudder pin issue...very professionally and coupled with consistent innovation to upgrades and accessories what more can you ask?

To experience what we have been talking about you need to get out on the ocean in 2-3 foot chop (2-3 foot waves at high frequency), and run before a 15-20 mph wind.

Maybe we have a misunderstanding of terms. Here is a picture of my boat beginning a “dive” below a wave. I would not call that "piercing." My bow is going under that wave, not through the wave. Let me assure you, this behavior plays hell with boat speed. Fun, yeah, it can be, but not if you are on a 6- to 8-day trip, and something breaks. That is my concern, and that is why I think Hobie needs to attend to this problem. From Matt's comments, I think that will be the case.

BTW, this picture was taken about 40 miles (64 km) to the nearest marina and help.


sorry with all respect this is exactly what i mean...

the situation you describe is 'perfect' for this happening, you have all the ingredients for classic nose diving...you have: chop, wind speed and direction and would be carrying significant extra weight...but it wasn't the AI that put you there it was 'YOU'...

again with respect don't you think yours and the reaction of some others is abit OTT...considering the simple and easy solution was to adjust your direction slightly so the pressure lets the boat heel rather then applying pressure to the bow..and to be 40 miles from safety...again that was your decision making process

the expectation that nothing will break when away, really bothers me..i mean are AI's indestructible? if you are undertaking trips like you do without the expectation something is going to break..then i am speechless


Last edited by Astro on Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:04 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:54 pm
Posts: 125
Location: Canyon Lake, Tx
Astro, I agree with you...experience and common sense on the water...it's called seamanship...

Ron

_________________
Image

CaptRon
"Anything's gonna happen,
it's gonna happen out there"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:38 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:38 pm
Posts: 14
Wow, I've been following this thread and also am surprised at the emotions evoked. I'm not going to enter the debate, simply ask wether anyone has actually pitchpoled an AI? I'm sailing the same waters and conditions that I used to sail on a Hobie 16 which we did manage to pitchpole a couple of times, mainly due to our inexperience, but since sailing the AI I have had the bow well under water but it comes up each time. I don't feel as though I have come close to that wonderful head over heels feeling!?!?!?

Hobie have created a fantastic multi purpose craft! Thanks also to Matt for his patience and endeavours!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:25 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 1862
Location: South Florida
I said I was done with this thread, but here I am, just one more time.

Astro and Ron, I guess there is a lot of “head shaking” going on—I’m shaking mine.

To say “the expectation that nothing will break when away [on a trip],” leaves me a little baffled. Who said we expect nothing to break? We carry 2 tool kits and Hobie AI parts. We hope nothing breaks. In fact in 15-yrs of kayak-camping and 2.5 yrs of Hobie AI tripping, we’ve had almost nothing break--only 1 rudder pin on the AI and nothing on kayaks. And, we have never needed any kind of a "rescue." But, in my mind, that was not what this thread was about. I began this thread trying to suggest a modification or an accessory so that something will not break under a stressful situation. I’m shaking my head, because I don’t understand why that has evoked such an emotional response—myself included, although I've been known to get emotional about things I care about.

And, frankly, I love to be 40 miles from “safety” and pretty much dependent on my own abilities and creativity if something does go wrong. I’ve also done 2 kayak-camping trips to Alaska which were self-guided and self-supported. These were 12 and 13-day trips. On those trips we were sometimes 100 miles from any kind of help—and any help you might get was sure to be slow in arriving. Does that mean we should not have done those trips? Are you saying that was poor judgment, lacking in common sense? You could accuse a lot of good people of that. Frankly, the trips I do with my AI are pretty tame compared to our Alaska trips. Here is one of the AK pictures. The 2 fellows sitting in kayaks just happened to be camped near us. My group is standing, Ivan Molten, Mary Parrott, and my wife, Nancy. The strong winds have not come up yet, but they will.

Image

I never bought my AI for day sailing. I bought it for extended camping/fishing trips. There is nothing in the manual that says you should not do that. Hobie has consistently showcased their AI and tandem AI in the WaterTribe Everglades Challenge--about as far from day-tripping as you can get. Actually, this year the tandem AI is entered in the “Ultimate Florida Challenge”—a “race” which circumnavigates Florida and includes a 40-mile portage. On our trips, you can’t always depend on the weather to hold or the winds to be mild and favorable. Being a kayaker, you generally have to stick to a schedule. I’ve always liked sticking to a trip schedule. I don’t see why I should change when I am using my AI. You might say that lacks common sense at times. Ron, might say it is poor "seamanship." I look at it as a bit of a challenge. BTW, I will be 75 yrs old in a few weeks. The kayak trips in Alaska were done after I was 68 yrs old. I'm still working at getting experience and improving my seamanship, Ron.

Keith

PS From my experience and a few others I have read about on this forum, the AI is tough as nails. Still, there is room for improvement in the current configuration—the T-n-S hatch cover seal is the most obvious and an add-on wave-deflector to reduce diving--Shufoy's make-shift wave deflector shows it will work.

_________________
I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Last edited by Chekika on Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:49 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:54 pm
Posts: 125
Location: Canyon Lake, Tx
Good for you Keith!...I hope I'm still able to dive my AI bow in a 3 ft wave when I'm 75! :D

Ron

_________________
Image

CaptRon
"Anything's gonna happen,
it's gonna happen out there"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:14 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:57 am
Posts: 270
Location: Perth, Australia
Keith you are the man!

and Max you are really tuff :roll:

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:21 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:07 am
Posts: 598
Location: Punta Gorda, FL
plaxy wrote:
Wow, I've been following this thread and also am surprised at the emotions evoked. I'm not going to enter the debate, simply ask wether anyone has actually pitchpoled an AI? !


I don't believe it is possible. To trip over its own bow and somersault, a boat has to be going fast, much faster than an AI can go, even surfing.

I came about as close as possible, I believe, and wrote about it before on this forum. Basically had to dive straight off a wave instead of surfing at an angle, and a gust of 40+ knots drove the boat into the next wave deep. The mast and sail hit the back of the wave, but didn't penetrate far. I would have to have been going a LOT faster to overcome the resistance of mast and sail and continue over the top. The boat just floated back up and kept going. No, it wasn't particularly fast, but no reasonably sized deflector was going to prevent it.

Keith, not shown in the video were a few gusts where my bow went under completely, and even in the video it goes down enough that effective deflector fins would be in the water. I think they would create more drag than they would prevent. As I said, if you're really diving into the back of a wave, I don't think any deflector is going to stop it. Perhaps there are conditions in which a deflector can make the boat dive to a shallower depth or dive less often without creating so much drag that it does more harm than good, and without overly stressing the hull, creating more leaks, and being susceptible to damage around docks and stuff. I just don't think so. You're asking for a lot of pounds of lift to do much good, and lift ain't cheap! Reef and lean back more!

And I'm w/ron34422! I hope I'm a kayak divin' geezer one day! :mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:10 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:59 pm
Posts: 349
Location: Coffs Harbour, NSW, Australia
My post wasnt addressed to you but OK, insult me and follow up by hull-kissing Matt in a feeble attempt to align yourself with credibility, then tell me to leave the Forum because my opinion is different from yours, that's fair.
Why dont YOU go to another Forum and tell someone that cares!

We just have a nice time here for years discussing the fun we are having with our AI's and now you ride in on your tired old horse and tell Hobie and us that you think they should re-design the boat because we are all idiots that dont understand it as well as you do.
It's reassuring that when a new design eventually does emerge I won't be too old to sail it, maybe you can read about it.

And chaosdave I don't give a rodents rectum what you think of me :roll:

_________________
Fair Skies, Max.
Image


Last edited by skymax on Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:35 pm 
Offline
Hobie Tech / Moderator

Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 3:16 pm
Posts: 301
Location: San Diego
I guess Mitch and the boys in Europe should've designed those Extreme 40's better so that they wouldn't pitch pole / capsize, maybe we'll see some bow deflectors to prevent pitch poling... :D

_________________
Greg Thomas
Hobie Factory Team


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:43 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 400
Location: CLEARWATER, MN
The reason I read and interact with others in this forum is because there has always been someone here, with more experience, who is willing to answer my 'stupid' questions without telling me that I am stupid. I don't mind differences in opinions...but this forum is starting to sound like the Democrats and the Republicans: 'I am absolutely always right and you are always wrong!

Please don't spoil this forum! I have left several other net-forums because several members
'hijacked' them for their own stubborn beliefs and didn't want to discuss but dictate.
I hate it when a few people ruin it for the majority.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:44 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:57 am
Posts: 270
Location: Perth, Australia
seriously Skymax if you don't have anything to input to the discussion besides how rad you are then maybe you should spend more time being the extreme outdoorsman away from your keyboard. I'm not pushing for an extreme hull redesign i just want hobie to look at wavedeflectors as an add on like many other kayak companies do already!

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:29 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 1862
Location: South Florida
TITALWAVE is right. I have edited a post which some people felt was OTT. So that you do not have to try to find that edit, here it is. BTW, TITALWAVE, I thought your comment about Republicans and Democrats was right on--I have been thinking the same thing! LOL.

Quote:
(I've edited this post--others have pointed out that my comment to Skymax was a bit out of line. Chekika)

Skymax, I don't feel you are contributing when you tell people to get another hobby. People you are referring to have invested in their boats, and they enjoy them as much as anyone else. When they suggest that there might be modifications or accessories to add to the performance of the boat, they are trying to be constructive. If Hobie did not have this forum, we would never hear of any of this. It is to Hobie's credit (and, I think, their benefit) that they put up w/ some of this. They are a company that listens to their customers and, within business constraints, seems to try to do what is right.

I'm done with this thread...(well, almost.) I think Matt understands our concern and request. Good video and pictures, Matt. Thanks.

Skymax, in response to your comment about kissing up to Matt, I appreciate his contributions to this forum. There have been numerous times when I was at odds with him, and I have told him so. Check my posts in T-n-S hatches, AI leakage, aka corrosion, etc. Also, check early in this thread, when I disagreed w/ his response. By the same token, I give him credit when he posts something I like. Most of us need to know our efforts are appreciated, especially if we go that extra mile.

Keith


I hope I don't get whacked for "kissing up" to anybody.

Keith

_________________
I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:44 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 5:06 am
Posts: 1568
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW AUSTRALIA
Lets all have a beer fellas and move on.

Who's shout ?

Did I ever tell you the joke about the priest, the pole dancer and the Hobie hull designer..........

_________________
Image

Don't take life too seriously................it ain't permanent.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 186 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 13  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group