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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:05 pm 
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Based on reports such as your's... we have stepped up inspection of this function for sure. It's an all new beast with a new set of issues.

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Hobie Cat USA
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:45 pm 
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Now where have I heard all this before? :roll:
Deja vu for sure. Remember the early AI's rudder problems!
Hobie got that sorted and I'm confident they will on the TI as well. 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:34 pm 
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mkrawats wrote:
Hi Roadrunner and Matt Miller.

The Tandem is my first purchase of a Hobie product. Please help me understand how the Tandem's Twist & Stow mechanism is designed to work.
I'm obviously no expert on such matters, but here's my understanding.

Due to Hobie's unique 45 degree mounting system that allows the rudder to flip up on the deck, the rudder always behaves itself on left turns and always wants to pop out on right turns. The tongue and groove arrangement on the left side is designed to "catch" the rudder on right turns so it doesn't escape the pocket that it sits in, in the down position.

The "down" line is the latest in a series of implementations to get the rudder to positively engage in its down position pocket and keep it there at all times so that the tongue and groove system will be in a position to take over and positively engage it when necessary. It is not strong enough to hold the rudder in the down position at higher rudder pressures without help.

When everything works well, the down line "bumps or snaps the rudder around the left corner of the pocket (it sits a little offset here) where the tongue and groove are. So ideally, with any backward pressure (overcoming the down line), the rudder groove will slide back and engage the tongue for a positive lock up.

The TI rudder is much heavier than the other Hobie rudders. In order to lift it onto the deck easily, Hobie has made the TI up /down system a double purchase system. As a secondary effect, this also effectively gives twice the leverage when the line is pulled taut and lock. I suspect this has something to do with why your line broke. It could be the line was frayed as well; normally the Spectra line is pretty strong stuff.

The rudder doesn't need to fit tight in the pocket. On the contrary, it needs to slip in and out without binding. It does need to be able to seat in the pocket all the way though.

As Anakritis convincingly pointed out, some of the rudder housings are misaligned so the rudders can't fully seat in the down position. He has worked out a couple of ways to overcome this, pending his sea trials. I think he also did a nice job of explaining why the alignment criteria are more critical on the new system due to the relocation of the various elements.

Loosening the drum bolt is not normally done (except for friction reduction for the up/down pivot action), as it invites excessive rudder play. But as TIDALWAVE demonstrated, in this case excess rudder play is necessary in some cases to coax the rudder into the pocket so the tongue and groove can be engaged. I see this as a temporary solution only until a proper fix is available.

When these parts are molded, they are susceptible to warpage if they cool unevenly. IMO, it's easy to spot a warped rudder, but hard to see a warped housing. It almost has to be installed and operated. It sounds like Hobie has developed new inspection procedures that should identify faulty alignments before they leave the factory, and is also looking at a variety of options to correct the problem.


That's my take on the issue anyway. As stringy says, they'll get it worked out. It may take a little time though -- I'm sure they don't want to rush into a "false fix". 8)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:57 pm 
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mmiller wrote:
Based on reports such as your's... we have stepped up inspection of this function for sure. It's an all new beast with a new set of issues.


Matt, I love my TI and don't want to jump you on an issue that is already being addressed - but I also had a problem with starboard control on our new TI, and today checked out my boat's rudder. Like others here, I found that there is no way to make the rudder seat using the up/down controls, either in or out of the water. It can be forced to latch by hand, which I am able to do as I have a floating dock over deep water to store the boat, so I launch and then latch it down by hand and go. However, I am concerned about what would happen if it pops up underway - there's no way to get it fully back down. I am hestitant to start wrenching on a new boat that was just delivered - I assume that the adjustments and toerances from the factory should be correct.

Again, it looks like you are already working on the issue - but I think we could use some specific guidance here - if I read the posts and your prior advice correctly, the answer is to back off the nut on the bolt in the center of the rudder axle (flip-over) point. Is this correct? If so, what does Hobie recommend in terms of how much to back it off? How much slop should we leave in the system?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:06 am 
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dmfickI wrote:
am hesitant to start wrenching on a new boat that was just delivered - I assume that the adjustments and tolerances from the factory should be correct.


The factory did not properly adjust these it appears.

Yes, loosening the drum bolt a 1/4 - 1/2 turn should do it. Just loosen to the point that the rudder seats into the latch area and does not "spring back". Excess lateral "slop" is of no consequence to the steering function. Once in the latch this is held tight by the housing and down control line.

Due to the design of the rudder stowage rotation... steering to the left (while moving forward) helps to move the rudder down and into the latch.

These adjustments and function techniques are unchanged for the Twist and Stow system since its inception.

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Hobie Cat USA
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:57 am 
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Location: South Florida (Coral Springs)
It's been a while since I've been on the message board and was glad to see this issue finally getting some deserved attention. So with all the new information I decided to see if the recommended fixes here would help my steering issues. My conclusion is that the reasons described in these posts are not exactly the reasons I have steering issues. However, it has let me deduce what I believe to be the cause of my steering issue. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to apply a band aid fix to my issue.

My basic conclusion is this: What appears to be happening is that no matter how tight the down line is tensioned, the rudder can very easily become dislodged from the latch due to the water pressure, (I easily did this with my pinky finger), then the rudder is free to rotate upwards causing the loss of the starboard steering control.

See the video I created that better illustrates this:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT75KvNcxT8[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT75KvNcxT8


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:41 pm 
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flaneur,

This is a different problem than the rest of us are experiencing. Some of us cannot get the rudder to go down and seat at all, no matter how hard we pull the down line. This is remedied by loosening the rudder flipover bolt.

Your problem looks more like a steering tensioning issue, as the rudder looks like it is self-tensioned to force the rudder left.

Apparently the added complexity of the dual control stations may be a bit much - I was at Backyard Boats in Annapolis today and saw a customer's hibiscus TI in for repair of a broken steering line - something that I don't think we saw happen much on the original AI's.

As they say - the TI's are apparently whole new animal and will have their own set of teething problems. As an early adopter of the AI in '07, I happily went along with the many upgrade programs, which I considered reasonable as a function of a new boat, evolving engineering, etc. However, I had hoped that the lessons learned with the AI would be enough to make the step up to the TI only incremental, with less engineering/design risk. However, I have already had to make four mods to my new boat (the temporary fix to the aka lock/connectors - replacements reportedly won't get here until July 8 as of today, metal mainsheet chafe plate, rudder bolt adjustment, and rudder line entry modification.

I believe that Matt addresses your problem in the technical notes section found here - look for the "Proper steering line tension" paragraph - may fix you up. Good luck

http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=26418

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current boats:
'10 Hobie TI
'06 Hobie Getaway
'95 OK Scrambler (5)
'10 Walker Bay 310/Tohatsu 9.8
'07 Yam VX110 (2)
'08 Carolina 2590/Yam 115 (aquaculture)
'08 Judge 22/Honda 150
'05 World Cat DC250/Honda 150s
'08 Island Packet SP Cruiser


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:16 pm 
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dmfick wrote:
This is a different problem than the rest of us are experiencing. Some of us cannot get the rudder to go down and seat at all, no matter how hard we pull the down line. This is remedied by loosening the rudder flipover bolt.

Understood...one of the reasons I posted this is because it appears that even though the rudder may be able to be fixed so it seats properly, there's still another problem that will cause the same thing to occur. I probably put between 30-40 pounds of force on the down line before I cleated it off. With this much force I was still able to easily move the rudder out of the clip (maybe a pound of pressure, if that). Yes, I can steer at slow speeds, but once the boat starts moving, the rudder gets pushed out of the clip and the same thing happens that is happening on all of yours'.

dmfick wrote:
Your problem looks more like a steering tensioning issue, as the rudder looks like it is self-tensioned to force the rudder left.

Thanks for pointing me towards the link; I'll have to look into this. I thought this was just a result of me putting too much force on the down line, as the rudder control works well when putting a nice reasonable, very firm, amount of force before cleating off....not close to 40 pounds of force. The point of me making a point of this was to show that I had a tremendous amount of tension on the down line, since everyone always says that's the problem.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:29 am 
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Location: Boynton Beach, FL
Hi flaneur.

Your video does a terrific job of visually demonstrating two TI rudder issues.

1. With the slighted pressure of the pinky (or water current), the rudder easily moves back and exits the groove. Once the rudder exits the grove, the TI loses rudder control and is at greater risk of breakage.

2. When the recommended tension on the rudder down line is applied, the rudder exhibits an extremely strong pull towards port.

dmfick suggests your problem looks more like a steering tensioning issue.

To test this theory, check the port/starboard steering tensioning when the rudder is down with two different tension settings. With rudder down tension applied, does the rudder also exhibit strong rudder tension towards port? With no rudder down tension applied, is the rudder correctly balanced, with no tension to either direction?

Another theory is that the rudder down line is the cause of the pull to port. Not the steering tensioning.

My TI rudder unit is scheduled for replacement, so I am unable to test this theory at this time. For those of us new TI owners with working rudders, please share with us the results of your tests.

Together, I believe we can help Hobie designers understand and resolve this issue by providing them this helpful information.

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2010 Hobie Tandem Island
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:31 am 
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You guys have this correct... tension of the steering lines overcomes the left steering created by rudder down line tension.

From the Tandem Island Tech notes: http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=26418

Quote:
Proper steering line tension is required for proper rudder function. The 2:1 down line tension exerts a load on the rudder which may cause the rudder to turn left if the steering lines are too loose. Tension the steering lines to hold the rudder straight when the 2:1 down line is fully tensioned. Too much tension simply binds the steering function, so careful adjustment will make the rudder function best.

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Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:26 am 
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Location: Naples, FL
I had recognized this issue on my first outing. The maiden voyage was made with one of my Hobie dealer rep's and he was the one to make the observation. We determined that proper tensioning of the down line occurs when the cleat grabs the line somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 of the available line, much more than that and things get to tight and the result can actually be "heard". When the line is over tightened you can hear the line "Twang" as if it is a plucked guitar string. We did not notice much of an impediment to steering other than increased effort to turn and the rudder rebound to the right.
I am not sure what the proper "factory" recommendation is on how much line to capture in the cleat as the documentation that came with my TI does not specify.

I was able to get out last Sunday briefly with my TI. The rudder adaptations I made seem to be functional and will serve to make sailing much safer in the future while I wait for my replacement T&S. As of this time I feel the alterations I made were correct and durable and I would not hesitate to recommend those alterations to other TI owners should they be experiencing the same issues as I have.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:32 pm 
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I decided to not mess with the tension in my steering lines since it works very well with the current steering tension IF I don't go overboard on the tension of the down line. The only reason I would tension the steering lines more is if the extra tension on the down line would help keep the rudder locked in place. However, as the video showed, my rudder is seating properly, and no matter how tightly the line is tensioned, the rudder will easily back out of the retainer with mild force.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:42 am 
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To dmfick:

yeah that's my red TI up in backyard boats... i actually had this rudder issue the OP is describing and i just pulled hard on the rudder down handle to get it to finally lock in place. after about the 12th or so time having the TI out i sailed it all the way to BYB (nappy town) for an AI/TI meet and then when we were pushing off from the dock my port rudder line snapped somehow. it had been sailed there an hour earlier and tied up at the dock,, not sure how in the world the line broke but hopefully they are fixing it as i type this so i can get back out there this weekend. btw nothing was rubbing or chafing on it while docked or at any other time to the best of my knowledge.

i've done all i can to take care of the TI to the best of my knowledge but now i'm wondering if my hard pulling on the down line had anything to do with the rudder line breaking. no other ideas how the line could have broke. i'm just so glad it happened at the docks where i purchased it instead of out in the water somewhere,, at which point i would have been phoning those tow-in boats :D

i also had a few issues where the aka comes out of the crossbar and during one occasion we damn nearly capsized. i am super impressed with the TI when it is going good but a little disappointed when things go wrong and there have been a few wrongs thus far. i have since had lines tied around all the crossbar knuckles holding the akas or amas (whichever) in place in case they want to come out. i'm a little hesitant to take it out far into the bay for fear that something will break or fall apart and that is disappointing to me cuz i had visions of making it all the way across the bay and back (15 miles round trip i think).


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:45 pm 
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rusty_sojah wrote:
To dmfick:

yeah that's my red TI up in backyard boats... i also had a few issues where the aka comes out of the crossbar and during one occasion we damn nearly capsized. i am super impressed with the TI when it is going good but a little disappointed when things go wrong and there have been a few wrongs thus far. i have since had lines tied around all the crossbar knuckles holding the akas or amas (whichever) in place in case they want to come out. i'm a little hesitant to take it out far into the bay for fear that something will break or fall apart and that is disappointing to me cuz i had visions of making it all the way across the bay and back (15 miles round trip i think).


Rusty,

BYB now has the aka upgrade kits and the mainsheet chafe guards in stock (at least in the Virginia location - they shipped me the upgrades a couple days ago, even though I am on the Magothy River closer to the Annapolis store). I did both the suggested internal clip modifications and the collar upgrades - very solid - I don't think the aka's will come out again. Good luck with your control line fix - has been very reliable on the AI's, so is probably just a one-time thing - they use Spectra or some other bullet-proof line - the guys who use these things every day in places with big water like Hawaii haven't had much wear or durability problems with respect to the lines.

We should get together sometime - I am trying to get out to one of the local AI/TI meet-up events at some point - just had a little surgery so am stickling close to home for a couple week, but maybe in late July.

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Dave Fick
current boats:
'10 Hobie TI
'06 Hobie Getaway
'95 OK Scrambler (5)
'10 Walker Bay 310/Tohatsu 9.8
'07 Yam VX110 (2)
'08 Carolina 2590/Yam 115 (aquaculture)
'08 Judge 22/Honda 150
'05 World Cat DC250/Honda 150s
'08 Island Packet SP Cruiser


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:56 pm 
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Hi Anakritis... just wondering if you've received your new T&S assembly yet? Would appreciate hearing your comments, as you did a great job of identifying a problem with the T&S.

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