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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:07 am 
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Location: Long Island NY
Got out of work early on Fri and it was blowing a good 15-17 mph steady with higher gusts ... so there was only one thing on my mind :wink:

Got the AI rigged with tramps pulled tight and I was having a blast, really flying on a beam reach with sail furled to first stay when a Huge gust struck ... next thing I know the port Ama tip is buried and the port tramp is now in the water acting as a huge speed brake.

Almost felt as if I might go over - unknowingly, I slid out of the seat and found myself half on the starboard Aka/tramp.

It was all over in 3 seconds as the AI lost all of its foward momentum - a bit scary but hey, we live for the thrill eh ?

Just curious if this is something I should add to the AI's bag of (bad) tricks and if I should plan accordingly ? and how so ?

... only thing I can think of is - dont have the tramps out in high wind ? was this caused by the Starboard tramp gaining sail capacity with the gust and helping to unsettle the rig ?

thanks - was the highest winds I've been out in to date and loved it, although I was fighting rudder ineffectiveness to some degree on both sides

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:47 am 
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PassWind wrote:

... only thing I can think of is - dont have the tramps out in high wind ? was this caused by the Starboard tramp gaining sail capacity with the gust and helping to unsettle the rig ?


It sounds like the gust did get under the tramps, and you're right, one way to avoid this is to not go sailing with the tramps on in high winds, another would be to furl the sail in a little earlier.

I approach high winds with a different perspective. I won't go out in high winds without my tramps. If it's windy, (and the winds of 15-17mph would be windy in my books) I almost always sit out on the tramps with my feet in the kayak, and sail the AI like a regular sailboat. Even with the tiller on the opposite side of the boat, having your rear end out on the tramp and leaning across the kayak to adjust the steering still gives you much more weight on the high side of the boat. For fun, I sometimes steer with my toes, but that's not at all necessary. If you're on the opposite side of the tiller, you've got the sail close at hand. If a gust catches you by surprise, you can lean out a bit, or you can instantly let the sail out to dump wind. If you're out on the side with the tiller close at hand and the sail on the opposite side, you can always steer into the wind.

You can adjust both the sail, and the tiller from either side of the boat, but of course depending on what side you are on, one of the controls will be more readily at hand. Your strategy for big gusts may depend on what side of the boat you're on, but you always have both the tiller control, and the sail line available no matter what side you sit on.

If you plan on staying in the cockpit of the AI, then the tramps may catch wind, but in my mind, the tramps were built to hold 200 pounds for a reason! You get a bit of a wet butt out on the tramps, but that's nothing new for an AI, and if the water is cold, I just wear a pair of wetsuit shorts.

I'm surprised that more users don't use the tramps like this. It makes the boat a lot more fun in big winds, and is a much safer position to be in if the gusts come unexpectedly.

That's just my two cents.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:11 am 
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Location: Canyon Lake, Tx
PassWind, I sail in gusty conditions most of the time in this area because of the hills that surround the lake...in strong gusty wind conditions you should reef (roll up) your sail a couple of turns...you'll actually sail faster because the boat will be flatter and not drag the leeward aka and tramp in the water which slows the boat down...when you're sailing as close to the wind as possible and get a big gust you can feel the wind creating "weather helm" and pulling the boat up into the wind...if you steer slightly into the wind you can bleed the power off until the gusts slows and then steer back on course...If you're sailing on a beam or broad reach and get a big gust steer the boat down or off the wind to bleed power...that's of course if you have plenty of space to do so...If you're in a confined space or other boats near you'll just have to release the main sheet and let the sail luff until the gust subsides..If you're rudder seems unresponsive in those conditions it's probably because you're overpowered with too much sail out..."reef early and often" hope this is understandable and it helps

CaptRon

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:19 am 
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Location: Canyon Lake, Tx
augaug, or you can do a little modification and steer from both sides... :D

http://s730.photobucket.com/albums/ww30 ... eering.mp4

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:02 am 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
ron34422:
Oooh... that's fancy! Only two problems, I don't think I'd ever sail something that was worked on by me! Second... I wouldn't be able to tell any cool stories about hanging on by a toe nail!

But seriously, that's a pretty cool modification.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:47 am 
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Location: Long Island NY
Thanks for the advice and replies ...

... when it happened I was reefed up to the first stay, and afterwards a bit more. I did hike out on the port tramp on a starboard tack and it did make the rig flatten out quite a bit. Even did try the toe-job steering on the port tack but Im definately having rudder issue(s) and I couldn't hold a decent line with my toes

My rudder issues:

My AI is an '07 and had the upgraded rudder system with pull lines and lock installed - The job was well done but, I've read that some don't even need to lock the line to have effective rudder control ? that the rudder clips into position and holds (kind of like the new TI system I've read about here ?) ?

Mine does not - not at all. Out of the water, With the rudder pulled down but line not cleated, I can easily push the rudder up, and in fact can push it up a good couple of inches even when pulled tight and cleated. I can see a groove where its supposed to ride/clip but even in the full down/cleated position mine is nowhere near contact.

Also, there is about a half inch slop left/right - just read about how to adjust this out last night so I'll see to that. And lastly, a vertical rudder extension was bolted to the tip of the rudder handle - which broke off - so now Im missing about the last 3/4" of the rudder lever (dremeled it smooth ...).

I'm definately looking for a tighter/easier rudder system in general - I like what you did ALOT Ron and saw it in your previous post, i'd just be afraid of knocking into it when changing positions onto the tramps or entry/exit from the boat. I was thinking perhaps instead of vertically mounting the handles like joysticks, mounting them horizontally ?

Im not afraid to Mod - been a hotrodder and model airplane builder all my life and consider myself a Dremel Artist :wink: but I want my first attempt to be a well thought out home run. Not afraid to plagiarize either

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:26 pm 
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Location: Wilmington, North Carolina
augaug wrote:

... only thing I can think of is - dont have the tramps out in high wind ? was this caused by the Starboard tramp gaining sail capacity with the gust and helping to unsettle the rig ?


It sounds like the gust did get under the tramps, and you're right, one way to avoid this is to not go sailing with the tramps on in high winds, another would be to furl the sail in a little earlier.

I approach high winds with a different perspective. I won't go out in high winds without my tramps. If it's windy, (and the winds of 15-17mph would be windy in my books) I almost always sit out on the tramps with my feet in the kayak, and sail the AI like a regular sailboat. Even with the tiller on the opposite side of the boat, having your rear end out on the tramp and leaning across the kayak to adjust the steering still gives you much more weight on the high side of the boat. For fun, I sometimes steer with my toes, but that's not at all necessary. If you're on the opposite side of the tiller, you've got the sail close at hand. If a gust catches you by surprise, you can lean out a bit, or you can instantly let the sail out to dump wind. If you're out on the side with the tiller close at hand and the sail on the opposite side, you can always steer into the wind.

You can adjust both the sail, and the tiller from either side of the boat, but of course depending on what side you are on, one of the controls will be more readily at hand. Your strategy for big gusts may depend on what side of the boat you're on, but you always have both the tiller control, and the sail line available no matter what side you sit on.

If you plan on staying in the cockpit of the AI, then the tramps may catch wind, but in my mind, the tramps were built to hold 200 pounds for a reason! You get a bit of a wet butt out on the tramps, but that's nothing new for an AI, and if the water is cold, I just wear a pair of wetsuit shorts.

I'm surprised that more users don't use the tramps like this. It makes the boat a lot more fun in big winds, and is a much safer position to be in if the gusts come unexpectedly.

That's just my two cents.[/quote]


I second this. I love to hike out on the tramps. That is what I got them for... well and taking occasional passengers. I would like to test ( not that I can as I know no one else with an AI) a race between two boats one with sail reefed and one Hiking out w/ full sail..

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:07 pm 
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Windpasser,

I've been sailing every week in high wind (+20mph) and waves and the tramps have been more of an asset than a liability,

I would say that your experience boiled down to too much sail and not too much tramp. Your rudder was telliing you that.

Augaug has the right idea about hiking on the tramps. If that suits your style

Yesterday I had my 80lb nephew on the tramps and found he was JUST the right weight to balance the boat perfectly. Both Amas were level and dry and he never dragged the tramps in the water. I was surpised to learn that downwind surfing was very stable with him out there, and he was small enough to tack under the sail without hitting anything.

If you are really concerned about the tramps taking you over, I would suggest loosening them a bit, reefing, hiking out and packing a supermodel.

Although, not in that order.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:00 pm 
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Location: Canyon Lake, Tx
Alan W., so far the vertical rudder handles on my steering system haven't been a problem exiting the boat to the tramps...I mount the kayak by sitting on the middle twist and stow hatch and then turn and slide back into the seat...it's just a matter of getting use to their location...once in the seat they are very comfortable...horizontal mounting sounds interesting...can't wait to see the pics!

I have a solution to your rudder lock down problem...I also didn't like the way the rudder lock down line would stretch and and let the rudder raise and increase the weather helm on a port tack gusty situation...I simply moved the cam cleat on the lock down line to the rear crossbeam on stb side next to the seat....I added an extra larger line through the cleat back along the rear cockpit area to the rudder and attached it by drilling a small hole in the rudder and connecting the line with a stopper knot...It works great...If you're interested I can take a pic and post it...good sailing!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:01 pm 
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Location: Terrigal NSW, Australia
NOHUHU wrote:
I would say that your experience boiled down to too much sail and not too much tramp. .

As far as I know, every report of an AI capsize has been with tramps on, except in breaking surf. Too much sail can impair control of the boat and speed, but I don't think it's ever been blamed for a capsize.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:57 am 
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Location: Byron Bay, NSW, Australia
I think it strongly depends where you are sailing. On 'flat-ish' water like a lake or an inlett hiking out might work well, but out on the ocean with big, steep and choppy waves it it much safer to roll up the windward tramp and furl the sail a bit.

I calmer conditions hiking out works well and is a lot of fun though.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:15 am 
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We've used the tramps on our TI in all wind conditions so far - and no furling has been necessary. Cindy likes riding the waves on the upwind side and it really goes like a rocket with her out there and the main completely unfurled in all its glory! :D

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:24 pm 
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Location: Kailua 96734
chrisj wrote:
NOHUHU wrote:
I would say that your experience boiled down to too much sail and not too much tramp. .

As far as I know, every report of an AI capsize has been with tramps on, except in breaking surf. Too much sail can impair control of the boat and speed, but I don't think it's ever been blamed for a capsize.


So AIs never flipped before a year ago, when tramps first came on the market?

Tramps ARE going to increase your opportunities to flip, that's all.

I think the math is pretty simple here: (Just the way I like it)
Too much sail + just enough wave= bottoms up (+ or - tramps)
Too much sail + just enough wave + tramps= >bottoms up
Too much sail + just enough wave + supermodel riding tramps= 0 bottoms up

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:18 pm 
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NOHUHU wrote:
So AIs never flipped before a year ago, when tramps first came on the market?


I don't know, but I don't believe a flip was ever reported on this forum before the tramps arrived - except in surf.
Anyone out there know otherwise???

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:47 pm 
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I'll add that a flip on the AI is no big deal. I flipped a few times this weekend just for fun. Turned down wind and ran to the bow and pulled the mast over... pitch pole style! At 210 I easily righted by standing on the lee ama... sinking it and rolling the boat over. No problem and quick. Wouldn't take nearly my weight to do that and if you release the ama... even easier. I would encourage others to test capsize for personal confidence.

On the steering, the rudder should be held by the little hook while on port tack. If it doesn't hold it is either worn or the drum is too loose. Mine was old and worked like a champ on all tacks and winds close to 20 at times.

I also had a bit of fun planing downwind (relatively flat water) by laying in the cargo area, chest on the rear beam and reaching forward to the tiller... SCREAMING!!!

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