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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:04 pm 
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5 pages since the thread was posted on Monday. Gotta be a record.
Sorry if someone has already mentioned this but I can see a design improvement to the top of the cart posts. Don't know but do the new carts have a rounded plug in the top ? With the old carts like mine the top is cut off square with a pissy little black plastic plug in the top ( which comes out ). This leaves a sharp edge which could easily punch a hole if the full weight of the hull is on it. The posts could be shaped with a long taper, with a large enough taper angle so that there would be no possibility of this occuring.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:40 pm 
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shakespeare was right.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:44 pm 
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Slaughter, you can add the plastic dome caps to the older carts. Works much better when inserting.

Hobie #80045000 CAP - HOBIE CART DOME ($.25each)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:58 pm 
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chrisj wrote:
angusisthedevil wrote:
What would a reasonable person expect. I would expect that if I lifted off the kayak from the wheels and did not put them on properly damage could result...

If Hobie warrants this claim then I think you are very lucky.

So Angus, what would you do if your boat became stuck in the way that Flaneur's did and you were sailing solo? The problem was that once he began to lift the boat, he was unable to put it back on the cart properly, due to the weight of the boat. At what point was he careless or negligent?


I'm not angus but I think flaneur was careless when he tried to lift a boat that was too heavy for him to do by himself. I feel for flaneur but still feel that if Hobie helps him out with this they are doing it out of the goodness of their heart and not because it falls under the waranty.

I suppose if you drop your boat while trying to put it on or off the roof of your car and it gets damaged Hobie should be liable. It's the same thing. The cart works fine if used properly. If someone screws up they need to take responsibility for their mistake.

Let's all hope Hobie helps flaneur out with this but please don't try to say they are responsible.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:26 pm 
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dosjers wrote:
I suppose if you drop your boat while trying to put it on or off the roof of your car and it gets damaged Hobie should be liable. It's the same thing.

With respect Jerry, it's not the same thing. If Hobie sold roof-racks for use with the TI, it would be the same thing. They sell the cart with the strong implication that it is suitable for use with the TI.
dosjers wrote:
The cart works fine if used properly. If someone screws up they need to take responsibility for their mistake.

So what does it mean to use the cart "properly". Never attempt to lift the boat off the cart single-handed? By extension, never use the cart at all when sailing solo?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:57 pm 
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Can we agree on one thing? - Hobie and their customers would both be well served if the company would take a closer look at the cart design and scupper strength with the AI/TI models.

Better labeling, at the very least, is clearly needed.

Poking a $4K hole in your pocket is bad enough, but in 50 degree water, further from shore, this story may have ended very badly.

So Keith's point seems right on the mark. Any jury (without Jerry on it ;-) looking at the facts might take a shine to Keith's argument. They might even feel the dealer was partly at fault.

As it turned out, Flaneur made a very simple mistake that may cost him dearly.

And since he hasn't really whinged about it, I for one, am not going to kick the guy while he's down.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:10 pm 
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PS. Flaneur, you should be using the cart keeper pins whenever possible!

PPS. Hobie, you should add retainer pins to both sides of the cart!

PPPS. My cart retainer pin failed recently, along with most other parts on this product. :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:41 pm 
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Location: Escondido
chrisj wrote:
OK, so can someone state what SHOULD one do if they find themselves with the wheels of the cart stuck in shallow water, with the boat still on the cart?
I just roll the boat on its side -- usually about 45 to 50 degrees is all it takes to insert or extract wheels in knee deep eater. Jacking up one side of the TI with amas solo is not the easiest job, but it's doable. I use this procedure virtually all the time since I'm not allowed to get wet beyond the knees (especially in cold water!).

Flaneur, sorry to hear about your mishap. Thanks for sharing this as a reminder of how Murhpy's law relentlessly lurks. It could just as easily have happened to me even if Hobie warned against it and I knew better (which I do). I hate to admit it, but I don't always do things according to "the manual" (as I should).

In a society that loves to find fault, nobody wants to be the blamee if there is an accident. Regardless of how hard we wish, no amount of wouldas, shouldas or couldas can undo these things, so it's best to move on and maximize any subsequent options.

To that end, I hope you have a satisfactory resolution with Hobie. Failing that, the boat is definitely salvageable and there have been some excellent repair suggestions made here. If there is access, I would have no reservations about using 3M Scotchweld DP 8010 or Loctite 3030 epoxies to repair and/or reinforce the damaged scuppers. I have had excellent results with bonding and strengthening high stress drivewell areas with both of these products. I would not have confidence in plastic welding, and am not aware of any other epoxy that can be fully relied on.

Best of luck for a quick resolution! 8)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:18 pm 
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Is that with the mast up and the amas attached but retracted RR?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:23 pm 
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Yes, the mast up helps counterbalance the boat. 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:14 am 
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Thanks RR. At last some constructive input.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:33 am 
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I just read my earlier post and it sound much harsher toward Flaneur than I intended. I am very sorry to hear he damaged his boat. And I am glad to hear that the result is nothing worse than a couple holes in a favorite toy, in the grand scheme of things. Coulda been a real tragedy. I've done similar missteps in other things that cost me a whole lot more than a TI. I wasn't really blasting off at Flaneur, so much as I have this irrational frustration when I start hearing too much 'lawyerly' creeping into conversations. (Ever listen to the Eagles song "Get Over It"?) I'm a huge proponent of personal responsibility.
And feel that the increasing lack of it is a big problem in the US.

I'm also glad Hobie will be stepping up to help another customer, and I bet we see a future version of the boat and cart modified to address this very issue. It seems to be the nature of the company. Ain't y'all glad it's the legacy of an old surfer instead of some of the corporate lawyers out there?

Sorry about the apparent 'tone' of my previous post. I can think of some ways to repair that boat, and to modify that hull/cart interface, but if Hobie is going to replace it obviously that's the best short term solution for Flaneur hands down.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:08 am 
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NOHUHU wrote:
Can we agree on one thing? - Hobie and their customers would both be well served if the company would take a closer look at the cart design and scupper strength with the AI/TI models.

I agree that the carts are poorly built. The wheels on mine have fallen off many times.

NOHUHU wrote:
Better labeling, at the very least, is clearly needed.

Since this Forum is full of ideas that go against Hobie recommendations I guess they will need to put a lot of labels on new boats to prevent liability. Like "Don't Sit on the AMAs" "Don't add a Jib" "Don't install a Longer Mast" "Don't drop your boat"

NOHUHU wrote:
So Keith's point seems right on the mark. Any jury (without Jerry on it ;-) looking at the facts might take a shine to Keith's argument. They might even feel the dealer was partly at fault.

I agree but then a jury gave a women millions of dollars because she spilled coffee on her lap and got burned.

NOHUHU wrote:
As it turned out, Flaneur made a very simple mistake that may cost him dearly.

And since he hasn't really whinged about it, I for one, am not going to kick the guy while he's down.

I totally agree. I have not been trying to kick flaneur. He made a mistake that any one of us could have done and I really hope Hobie helps him out. This whole thing started because I said I didn't think Hobie was liable but glad they were helping.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:05 am 
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For repair, my dealer recommended completely filling the scupper holes with a polyethylene foam that will expand once in place, filling all cracks. I didn't catch the name of this product. Once that is in place, he said they would then seal the top and bottom with 3M 5200 caulk.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:53 am 
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What I did not mention, when I gave the example above of how a “wrongful death” suit against Hobie might go, was the following. The lawyer, making the case that Hobie was responsible for the AI/TI user’s hypothetical death, wheels a TI into the court room (the lawyer couldn’t do this, so a strong assistant would do this, someone young like RoadRunner or Dosjers). The assistant would lift the TI partially off the wheels, and then rapidly lower it acting like it was too heavy. The assistant would remove the amas/akas, roll the boat on its side, and remove the wheels. The jury would and examine the scupper holes. You guessed it: the scuppers are ruptured. The lawyer would then proceed to claim that the ruptured scuppers occurred during normal use of the boat—such as any Hobie owner might exercise.

I am not a lawyer. I’ve only used a lawyer once in my life when my local village lawyer claimed a flood caused by a village water tank with a faulty valve and a non-working alarm flooded my property one night and damaged my house. The village claimed it was an “act of God.” My lawyer shamed them into giving me an out-of-court award for damages. My case did not go to court. My lawyer said he did not like that kind of case, because he would prefer to win it in court, but would have been difficult under the law (New Mexico law regarding grievances by a citizen against a city.) Lawyers are a necessary evil, especially when an individual goes against a large corporate entity.

dosjers wrote:
I agree but then a jury gave a women millions of dollars because she spilled coffee on her lap and got burned.

Jerry, interesting you would bring up the “McDonald’s Hot Coffee” law suit. It also happened in NM. You should read the Wall Street Journal’s report on that case: http://www.vanosteen.com/mcdonalds-coffee-lawsuit.htm The McDonald’s coffee was found to be 20-degrees hotter than other fast-food restaurant’s coffee—it was scalding hot. McDonald had also previously had 700 other complaints about injuries from hot coffee and settled them out of court, some for more than $500,000. They offered the NM burn victim $800. The burn victim spent 7 days in the hospital and had several skin grafts. Although the jury awarded the plaintiff about $4 million, most of it punitive damages, the judge reduced that to $480,000, “even though the judge called McDonald’s conduct reckless, callous, and willful.” Prior to this case, the Shriner’s Burn Institute in Cincinnati had “published warnings to the franchise food industry that its members were unnecessarily causing serious scald burns by serving beverages above 130 degrees Fahrenheit.” McDonald’s training manual stated that its coffee be held at “180-190 degrees for optimal taste.” A slightly different version of the case can be found in Wikipedia.

The McDonald’s jury found the plaintiff was 20% at fault—McDonalds 80%. What would the users of this forum rate Flaneur/Hobie fault ratio?

Keith

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Last edited by Chekika on Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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