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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:28 pm 
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mmiller wrote:
we do warn and notify of the issue of potential cart damage.

I've pretty much read the manual that came with my boat cover to cover. Also, when I bought my cart, the only thing I received with it was an allen wrench. Nowhere have I seen such a warning. I'd like to know where this warning and notification is. Was anyone else notified of these potential problems when they bought their carts? I'm told I'm a bit anal with taking care of my boat (guess not enough) so if I was warned I would have been extra careful using this cart. So Hobie, in the future, please attach some type of warning to the carts to notify the purchaser that these carts can cause permanent damage to your boat which will void any warranty. In addition, include instructions telling people the proper way to use these and warning them of the incorrect method of using them and possible ramifications of using them in such a way.
mmiller wrote:
No... not the first time. We are looking at ways to reinforce these areas better. Scuppers and scupper cart problems are a known in the kayak industry.

This is even worse! If it's a known issue, again why are you selling a product that is known to cause catastrophic damage without any warning? I'm really thankful I was close to shore when this happened.

A known weak point of the boat that can cause it to sink should be at the top of your to do list. This does not seem like it's that difficult of a fix. Forget about trying to mold the plastic thicker in this area, which may be difficult, something as simple as others have suggested here such as placing PVC or HDPE pipe reinforcement either in the inside or outside of the hole would be a significant improvement.

mmiller wrote:
This is not a problem with "fit for the purpose for which they are intended". Scuppers are drains and function as such.


If this is the case, why sell a cart that you know can and has caused significant damage? If this was an aftermarket part sold by a separate company, then I'd understand...use at your own risk. However, this is a product with Hobie's name attached, and one I trusted had been tested and found suitable for use without causing any major issues. If there were known issues, then again, where's the warning label?

If Hobie's stance is such that their products are "fit for the purpose for which they are intended," should I be concerned about other Hobie parts for my boat? Should I be concerned about trampolines because the akas are only intended to support the amas? Is there a defined way of how the trampolines are intended to be sat on, because the intended purpose of the akas is only to support the amas? I'd be concerned now. Also, I cycle and like to keep my pedaling cadence around 70-80 rpm. Now I'm worried that the Mirage Drive may only have been designed for a cadence of up to 30 rpm. I won't even get into the fact that these have the turbo fins that cause even more stress....maybe I should only pedal at 20 rpm. How do I know what the product I bought from Hobie is really intended to do and how I'm supposed to use it? I really worry now after that statement from Matt.
mmiller wrote:
Care must be taken as would be the case with countless other products in specific situations.

I agree, the user has to be accountable as well. With all this being said, I'll even say it's not Hobie's fault this happened. However, if you have a known issue where this has happened before, and this could be exacerbated by the heaviest kayak you've ever manufactured, then maybe you shouldn't say this is entirely user error.

I have enjoyed this boat, but I have had my share of troubles in a very short time period which is really testing me. It all started with the boat that wouldn't turn properly that I was told time and again that I wasn't tensioning the down line properly, causing much frustration outing after outing while on the water and almost causing at least one major collision; the rudder coming off due to the mounting screw; the steering line breaking; loosing screws out of the mast receptacle; severely frayed mainsheet; and now this. Yes, these have all happened to me. Oh, and don't forget the numerous missing parts Hobie had to ship me separately after I initially took delivery of the boat. I had to figure out for myself that I must be missing parts since as it turned out one of the missing parts was the owner's manual.

I really appreciate Hobie doing what they have so far to try to correct issues. Other companies would not have done as much as Hobie has already done. However, it still remains that this has been one of my most frustrating purchases ever, especially given it wasn't even a used product.

Hopefully, the scupper holes will be successfully repaired (without Hobie's assistance) and I can forget all this ever happened, and eventually be as excited about going out in this boat as I was the first day I brought it home.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:37 pm 
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We typically do extend good faith coverage in situations such as this. We know it's a bummer and do what we can to get owners back on the water.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:06 pm 
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Yes have to agree with you flanuer.

One of the first accessories the Hobie dealer tries to push is the carts, no warning on them and I have never heard it mentioned at a Hobie dealers premises.
In fact I have only heard it mentioned probably 3 times, or should that read, in 3 separate discussions. Have come very close to doing it myself.

To say the scuppers are only designed as a drain and yet, sell a cart specifically to fit those scuppers, I doubt very much the carts were not discussed in that design process, its a contradiction in itself and very poor taste. I can understand your disapproval!!!

Have to say, as much as I want a TI, I am glad I have not been in a situation where I can get one, they certainly have had there dramas and hopefully when I am in a position to get one, the bugs have been ironed out.

Flanuer, please keep me up to date how the fix goes, and hope that link helps.
I am not sure of your own technical ability but its not that hard to plastic weld and there is a lot of info about how on the net.
Would recommend quite a bit of practice first but you never know it maybe something you can fix yourself, and quite sure if you joined up, Gerkin would be happy to assist as best he could, he is a nice guy.

mmiller wrote:
We typically do extend good faith coverage in situations such as this. We know it's a bummer and do what we can to get owners back on the water.


Hi Matt,
I do not for one minute doubt it, to this day I personally cannot knock the service and support that I have seen Hobie supply, but I have to say Flanuers comments are correct, something Hobie may need to look at a little harder?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:58 pm 
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mmiller wrote:
We typically do extend good faith coverage in situations such as this.


Matt,
Does this mean you are going to cover this?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:32 pm 
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A claim needs to be placed with our warranty department. That is the process.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:01 pm 
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Sorry... I really have not been able to follow this thread throughly. I have been out of the office much of the time in the last few weeks. I did not read the post completely or answer the questions from "flaneur".

Cart warnings are in the parts and accessories catalog. We notify dealers of the concern. We are adding other warnings along the way.

Scupper carts have long been the easiest way to carry a kayak, we don't build our own, but have required many changes to carts we buy to make them easier to use and more fool proof. We added the dome caps and then the keeper pin to help keep the cart fully inserted.

This "known issue" does not mean the hull needs to be changed structurally. When a cart is used properly... it is a NON issue. We keep trying to educate and will always be looking for other solutions. Landing gear on an aircraft has it's limits too. A hard landing can damage it, but that doesn't mean it is defective in some way.

Like I posted before... we commonly offer good faith coverage for unfortunate situations such as this. A claim has to be filed first. At the minimum we would likely offer to replace the hull and a highly reduced cost.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:04 pm 
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Matt's good people. I'm sure Hobie will do something for flaneur.

The main thing is, through flaneur's pain, we are learning something important here.

1. This was an accident - one that could happen to any of us.

2. While it can happen to any sized yak, it can occur all to easily on the long/heavy TI.

3. It is customer's ultimate responsibility to avoid it.

4. Hobie brands their own cart, and recommends it, so the company has an obligation to warn the customer of any potential risk of property damage or personal injury caused by its use. They do this in most regards.

5. There is NO mention of this in the TI manual or along with the cart, that I can find. So more can be done to publish written warnings, and to demonstrate proper use of the cart, such as in a video.

6. We all should take special care with our loaded AI's and TI's. That includes NOT letting someone else insert/remove the scupper carts for us. They likely are oblivious to the dangers, or too embarrassed to tell us they just poked gaping holes in our shiny new boat.


I'm so glad flaneur brought this up. It's amazing to think how easily a common mishap like this could instantly ruin the boat or get someone killed. Up to now, my main concern about these carts was that the wheels are popping off and blowing out all the time.

Gonna keep a closer eye on my scuppers now, for sure.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:25 am 
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Hey I think you guys are going too far!

If you don't close the door of your car and rip it off on a post when reversing out the drive will GM warranty the car? I don't remember the warning in the manual about this! Even if it was there you could deny understanding or reading it!

To me it seems like a simple case of operator error. I feel for you but you should consider your actions and ACCEPT responsibility for your mistakes.

What would a reasonable person expect. I would expect that if I lifted off the kayak from the wheels and did not put them on properly damage could result...

If Hobie warrants this claim then I think you are very lucky.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:11 am 
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augustthedevil,
I agree with you. I really don't see this as a waranty issue. The only reason I asked if it was going to be covered is because Matt said they normally extend a good faith coverage.

I do think Hobbie should get better at warning people about problems or potential problems they know about. Gringo bought a new TI does not seem to know it has a defective rudder (this info is from another thread). Someone needs to explain to new owners how the temporary fix works and that they better use it while sailing. Another person I met was out with a group of AI's. He had a new boat with the temporary fix installed but no one explained to him how and when to use it so he kept loosing his steering.

Back to this issue. I think if Hobie helps flaneur out on this one he is one lucky guy and would show why so many people love Hobbie.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:46 am 
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cliffs2yak wrote:
Running the bildge pump while in rough conditions example: AlohaDan and Kelly (Plenty Pupule Sports) completed the 30 mile crossing of the Alenuihaha Channel. Dan reported having to stop occasionally to bilge water out from their AI's hulls. I can only imagine how difficult that must've been while being slapped around by 6'+ seas.


Maybe a little off topic but I have thought a lot about this. If your kayak is filled or nearly filled with water, it could be a BIG problem to empty it with a bilge pump. Especially in rough conditions. If you open center hatch to access the water, waves most likely will enter the kayak wilst you are trying to pump the water out of it. If you use the kayak in "kayak mode" the problem is even BIGGER.
The pool noodles will prevent the kayak from sinking, no doubt, but you will still be in BIG trouble.

When going a bit off shore it is a serious issue with a lot of water in the hull.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:48 am 
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Hammer wrote:
mmiller wrote:
Varies by model as to where, but up in the rail areas I believe. Serial numbers for 2011 production ends in 011. Started building 2011s in August I believe.

So the Ivory Dune TI that I ordered in Nov this year which has just arrived (in Aust) should be a 2011 model? But to be sure, its serial numbers should end in 011, right?


All US built boats have the same code for the last four digits of the hull number, as follows:

A letter indicating the month (A=January, B=February, etc.)
A number indicating the year the boat was built (8=2008, 0=2010)
Two numbers indicating the model year.

So my boat, produced in January of 2008, ends in A808. A 2011, as yours will probably be, would end in I011 if it were built in September of this year (I=9th letter=September, 0=built in 2010, 11=2011 model year boat.)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:01 am 
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angusisthedevil wrote:
What would a reasonable person expect. I would expect that if I lifted off the kayak from the wheels and did not put them on properly damage could result...

If Hobie warrants this claim then I think you are very lucky.

So Angus, what would you do if your boat became stuck in the way that Flaneur's did and you were sailing solo? The problem was that once he began to lift the boat, he was unable to put it back on the cart properly, due to the weight of the boat. At what point was he careless or negligent?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:10 am 
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For those of you, who are worried about problems because you go well offshore, especially if you sail solo, you should carry a VHF radio and either a PLB (EPIRB) or, my favorite, a SPOT device (may not work in Hawaii.) Those items give you a lot of peace of mind. Most AI/TI sailors should probably carry these safety items any time they go out. Accidents happen unexpectedly, and they often happen fast.

Regarding Flaneur's specific problem, certainly we expect to be responsible for our actions. At the same time, the simple act of inserting the wheels into the scupper holes should not be a threat to trash our boat because of a slight and, perhaps, unavoidable error. Given that the molding process may leave the scupper holes thin, it seems to me that Hobie ought to make larger scupper holes and then place re-inforcing liners in them to prevent the problem that Flaneur and others have had.

Keith

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:41 am 
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Hello Keith!

Chekika wrote:
For those of you, who are worried about problems because you go well offshore, especially if you sail solo, you should carry a VHF radio and either a PLB (EPIRB) or, my favorite, a SPOT device (may not work in Hawaii.) Those items give you a lot of peace of mind. Most AI/TI sailors should probably carry these safety items any time they go out. Accidents happen unexpectedly, and they often happen fast.

I suppose you mean my post about problem with pumping out water. And of course, you are right. But still, the equipment you mention, does not help me get the water out. Every time I read about someone sitting in a Hobie kayak that is nearly full with water, I wonder what I would do in the same situation.


Chekika wrote:
Regarding Flaneur's specific problem, certainly we expect to be responsible for our actions. At the same time, the simple act of inserting the wheels into the scupper holes should not be a threat to trash our boat because of a slight and, perhaps, unavoidable error. Given that the molding process may leave the scupper holes thin, it seems to me that Hobie ought to make larger scupper holes and then place re-inforcing liners in them to prevent the problem that Flaneur and others have had.

That is a very good suggestion!

thomas


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:51 am 
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mmiller wrote:
Gringo wrote:
So, the TI that my wife ordered for me in September should be one with the flotation?

I haven't seen it yet, it's still awaiting customs clearance.


If it's a 2011 yes. If not... it is pretty easy to add. The internal flotation we add is similar to a pool noodle material, but long blocks. I believe 4 are in a TI.

This is simple reserve flotation in case of a hull being flooded... which can happen from a variety of issues including an open hatch of course. We started with flotation for boats sold in Europe due to certification issues there. Weight of the hulls is a sales issue between manufacturers, but we felt that safety should come first and made the change here as well.


Well, this is not entirely true.
Maybe for boats going to Europe, but not mine.

I am taking a break right now from assembling trailer and TI, but s/n HCCP1154K011 was ordered in September, and from what I am reading is a new one.

It was purchased from dealer in Florida, who shipped it to us via sea freight.

But there is no floatation of any kind inside the hull. Just two water bottles and three battens in there. Believe me, I looked.

Also came with a sticker on the packing that said "Dry Bag Missing".

And this is true. There is no dry bag in it, either.

So, how do I tell if it has any of the other upgrades? There is no bungy on the rudder, for example. Nor included with the boat. Do we supply our own bungees for rudder mod on 2011 boats? There is nothing in the documentation about that. Is the documentation up to date?

Also noticed nothing in it about installing the seats, but I assume I can figure that out when I get to that point.

Well, back to it...

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