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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:18 am 
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Location: Gilbert, AZ
I've had the same cracking issues on a kayak, was caused by the cart arms. Switched to the Wheelez sit-on-top cart and never had it occur again.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:21 am 
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Quote:
K011


Should be November of 2011 production.

Should have the foam blocks wedged up in various places in the hull.

Should have the rudder retrofit pre-installed.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:18 am 
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No, Thomas, I was not thinking of your post specifically, rather, as I read this thread, there seemed to be a number of people worried about problems (sinking?) offshore. My wife and I each have an AI, and I have never worried about these boats filling up with water. I've worried about other things happening, and, I've complained a lot about leaks, but I've not worried sinking. In any case having a PLB or SPOT would save your bacon and, probably, your boat. I carry my SPOT on any trip I do, sailing or otherwise.

Keith

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:01 pm 
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Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
mmiller wrote:
Quote:
K011


Should be November of 2011 production.

Should have the foam blocks wedged up in various places in the hull.

Should have the rudder retrofit pre-installed.


my mistake. You are absolutely right. I had peered down into the forward hatch, entire head inside, and saw no foam blocks. then briefly looked in each of the twist and seal hatches, and didn't see them.
So after your reassurance I stuck my head inside the rear hatch, and indeed, wedged up against the underside of the deck I spotted the square end of a foam block.

On the rudder I had misinterpreted what I had read here. The bungee is not attached to the rudder. But to the hull. And it is there.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:47 pm 
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Location: Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
chrisj wrote:
angusisthedevil wrote:
What would a reasonable person expect. I would expect that if I lifted off the kayak from the wheels and did not put them on properly damage could result...

If Hobie warrants this claim then I think you are very lucky.

So Angus, what would you do if your boat became stuck in the way that Flaneur's did and you were sailing solo? The problem was that once he began to lift the boat, he was unable to put it back on the cart properly, due to the weight of the boat. At what point was he careless or negligent?


Chris

I think it is quite clear where he was careless. It was when the wheels were not properly inserted after lifting it off when it probably wasn't a good idea (hindsight is a wonderful thing). I though this was pretty obvious!

What he did was the perfect thing and I would hope that I would have the ability to do the same thing. I appreciate the post to advise people to be careful with their carts and highlight the point

In addition in case I have an issue I always travel within my limits, tell someone where I am going (including the local coast guard), wear a pfd (as does my dog), carry a waterproof vhf radio, a phone in a waterproof pouch.

For areas that I am concerned about I either don't go or will NOT travel alone in one boat. I do not feel comfortable going offshore so I simply don't go!

When I snapped the rudder assembly off the back of my boat (while the rudder was locked down) when loading it on the trailer should it be a warranty claim? I do not expect so because it was user error!!!
No one told me that this would cause it to break....I however am a person who is reasonable and consider it my fault and plain stupidity!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:04 pm 
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Location: Terrigal NSW, Australia
Angus, if I understand Flaneur's account correctly, he did not lift the boat off the cart. The problem was that the weight got to be too much before he could get the boat clear of the cart, so he got the boat just high enough for the rods to get on an angle to the scupper tubes, then had to put the boat down again.
Please correct me if I got it wrong, Flaneur.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:26 pm 
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Well, I can't see how this is Hobie's fault in any way whatsoever. Distilled down to it's simplest terms, the hull was essentially lifted part way off the cart and then dropped back onto it crookedly, right? how does that constitute a defect in materials or workmanship?

If one is not physically able to lift the boat cleanly off the cart, then perhaps one should consider either getting a different type of cart or a lighter boat.

But it's not Hobie's responsibility to determine whether or not customers are able to physically lift the boats they buy. They DO publish the weight specs on it.

If you dropped your boat while trying to load it onto the top of your car, would you feel Hobie was responsible for any damage it caused?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:14 pm 
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Location: South Florida (Coral Springs)
chrisj wrote:
Angus, if I understand Flaneur's account correctly, he did not lift the boat off the cart. The problem was that the weight got to be too much before he could get the boat clear of the cart, so he got the boat just high enough for the rods to get on an angle to the scupper tubes, then had to put the boat down again.
Please correct me if I got it wrong, Flaneur.

Correct. The boat was lifted straight up, then set straight back down (not dropped). It was not set down crooked, in a since the boat was rolled more to one side or the other. This is evident by the very symmetrical tears in both the left and right scupper holes.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:27 pm 
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angusisthedevil wrote:
If you don't close the door of your car and rip it off on a post when reversing out the drive will GM warranty the car?

Poor comparison. However, if I had sailed my boat into a dock, then it'd be similar.
angusisthedevil wrote:
When I snapped the rudder assembly off the back of my boat (while the rudder was locked down) when loading it on the trailer should it be a warranty claim

Maybe slightly better IF you were using a Hobie manufactured trailer, but still very different from my situation.
Gringo wrote:
If you dropped your boat while trying to load it onto the top of your car, would you feel Hobie was responsible for any damage it caused?

If you guys are going to make analogies, try to think about one would reasonably expect to happen given a certain set of circumstances.

Some may not place much weight in my opinion since I have a vested interest. However, the real question is, "was this cart being used as it was reasonably intended to be used, and was it used in such a manner that the majority would see as being used incorrectly?"
I think that one would reasonably think that if you lifted a boat off the cart without the post ever coming out of the bottom of the scupper holes, and then set it back down, that the post would simply return to their original position through the other side of the scuppers. Before this happened it never crossed my mind that this type of damage was even possible. The poor analogies above are quite obvious to anyone what's going to happen if you drop your boat off the top of your car or back into a post. Come on, you can do better than that.

angusisthedevil wrote:
I feel for you but you should consider your actions and ACCEPT responsibility for your mistakes.

Read my previous posts; I believe I stated such. Not once have I called on Hobie to provide me with a fix or give me anything. My big complaint is if this is a known issue that has happened before due to a known weak point in the boat, then I should have been made aware of this. I have not checked, but Matt has said this is in a catalog and that the dealers are told about this. Still, if I can cause catastrophic damage to a $5000 boat with this little cart, a lot more needs to be done to warn the user than hope they read the catalog and hope that the dealer, who tries to sell them the cart, tells them that if you buy this from me you may likely destroy your boat. I believe most agree more needs to be done in this respect.

angusisthedevil wrote:
If Hobie warrants this claim then I think you are very lucky.

At this point I'm not expecting anything from Hobie, but some luck would be nice for a change with this boat!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:36 pm 
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Location: Terrigal NSW, Australia
Gringo, I don't think it's a question of faulty materials or workmanship, so much as the suitability of the cart for use with the TI. Any reasonable person can see that you are taking a risk loading a TI onto a roofrack, but the cart is sold as suitable for use with the TI and most reasonable people would NOT have foreseen what happened to Flaneur.
It's not a question of apportioning blame to Hobie. They appear to be acting with their usual good grace and offering to sort things out.
Assuming Flaneur is not suffering from some muscle wasting disease, it's reasonable to assume this could happen to other people, so I think it's important that a strong warning be issued to future purchasers that even apparently normal use of the scupper cart can result in damage to the boat.
I guess the lesson for all users is: Don't attempt to lift a rigged TI off the scupper cart unless you are sure you have the strength to clear the cart.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:40 pm 
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I can see you accept you made a mistake but it seems others do not share your opinion.

From the pics you post it seems you got the boat up most of the way and the boat went forward or back..or the wheels did so. Then due to the clearance it went in sideways. It must have come a long way out to be able to twist in like that.

Hey I don't like the cart design much either and I think it needs improvement as do the thickness of the holes, etc. I bought it used it and accepted it as is. I think it is fit for purpose but not one of the best parts from Hobie.

Then again for 5K it is pretty good value when you consider the liability and warranty support.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:46 pm 
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OK, so can someone state what SHOULD one do if they find themselves with the wheels of the cart stuck in shallow water, with the boat still on the cart?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:48 pm 
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My opinion. The carts are a bit dangerous in the way they install into the hull. The safest way is to wrap around the hull. Cradled not impaled. I tried out a freinds cart from the parking lot at the boat ramp . After rigging the boat for a day on the water and sitting the hull on the cart. You could see the boat flexing on there. There's alot of force on the scupper holes. If you are moving the boat on a paved parking lot I suppose its alright. But over ruff terrain your asking for trouble. The posts sticking up act as a lever arm exerting lots of force on the hull. This is why I don't want the cart. I am destructive enough as it is. I just got a bad feeling about how the boat sits on the cart. What a nightmare. I have an Adventure and yes half way full of water you got to be strong to get the hull out and drain it. The tandem island is alot bigger. Glad to read your ok. Sorry about your bad luck. If hobie does not warranty your boat. I'd love to hear how or if you try to fix your TA. The mirage hull crack is one thing but I bet the scupper holes could be repaired easier.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:52 pm 
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This was a much longer post agreeing with Augus that he was definitely in error in breaking his stern. I also illustrated with 20-20 hindsight where Flaneur did make some mistakes--he should not have purchased a boat, purchased wrong boat, should have taken a body-building course, should stay out of muck, should not have bought wheels, should have had a sailing partner with xray vision, etc. I've deleted that to focus on Hobie's responsibility to their customers. I am not a lawyer--really don't like them much--but I would think a lawyer might look at this as follows.

He would ask Hobie's president, “Why did you build a heavy boat for solo sailing with such a serious weakness as thin walled scupper holes, especially when people are inserting an object (sold by Hobie) into these holes which can easily pierce the boat's hull?" The lawyer would point out, that person cannot see if the object is doing damage to the scupper holes as he inserts the object. Then, he would ask, "Why would you design a boat with such an obvious defect?”

Let's look at the following scenario: A person’s TI or AI sinks in 10’ of water. The person has a pfd but dies from exposure, sharks, or Portuguese Man-0f-War stings. Said person’s spouse hires a lawyer who discovers the boat sank because of ruptured scupper holes. The lawyer investigates and finds out that Hobie was aware of this potential problem for several years of boat production. Further, they did not recall their AI/TIs and did absolutely nothing to remedy the situation. How do you think the court trial might go?

Perhaps, Hobie's lawyers have weighed the pros and cons of such a lawsuit and decided it was unlikely, or, that the company could take the hit. It seems to me that it is in Hobie’s best interest to correct this defect ASAP.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Last edited by Chekika on Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:58 pm 
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angusisthedevil wrote:
I can see you accept you made a mistake but it seems others do not share your opinion.

The only mistake I made was when I stopped lifting weights a few years ago. I see this less as a mistake and more as a set of unfortunate circumstances. If I did the same thing 5 more times, it probably wouldn't happen.


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