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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:43 pm 
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Kayakman, your comments are amazing, and akin to telling the rape victim she asked for it by wearing lipstick.

These guys, some of the most experienced kayakers in the country, were out in open water, minding their own business, and one of them guessed wrong whether to zig or zag to avoid the approaching power boat which was veering back and forth on its course by 15 degrees or so, WITHOUT ANYONE LOOKING OUT THE WINDSCREEN.

Yet you choose to blame the victim? I am mighty glad you cannot serve on any jury in my country.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:27 am 
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tonystott wrote:
Kayakman, your comments are amazing, and akin to telling the rape victim she asked for it by wearing lipstick.

These guys, some of the most experienced kayakers in the country, were out in open water, minding their own business, and one of them guessed wrong whether to zig or zag to avoid the approaching power boat which was veering back and forth on its course by 15 degrees or so, WITHOUT ANYONE LOOKING OUT THE WINDSCREEN.

Yet you choose to blame the victim? I am mighty glad you cannot serve on any jury in my country.


No I don't see Kayakmans post this way. He is just pointing out a different point of view. Sorry to say but I think Kayakman got it all right.
I am not talking about this specific case.
In reality it doesn't matter who has the right of way, if you are sitting in a kayak, it's NOT you!
Better keep out of way, and make absolutely everything you can to be seen. No lipstick!

BTW I have now ordered a yellow Adventure Island. :D

BR thomas


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 6:07 am 
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I have crewed on a number of racing yachts. The captains constantly yell that they have right of way. Our boat has been hit several times by the other racer who 'had right of way'. Lucky no-one ever sank.
Kayaks may have the right of way over a powerboat...but that doesn't do you any good if you are run over by a big speedboat.
I kayak on a local waterway which may have dozens of power boats in visual distance. On those days, I find something else to do. You only need one idiot to kill you.

Sailboats supposedly have 'right-of-way' but there is an exemption for commercial vessels. They can't turn or stop in enough time and distance, so it is up to us to make sure that we are not run down. There are multiple Youtube videos, where kayakers and/or sailboats are nearly run over by giant freighters. They seem to think that the smaller the boat the more rights of passage they have!


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:54 am 
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OK, so we agree that a kayaker, or anyone else in a small boat, should not assume that their "right of way" is enough to save their skins. But if they take whatever evasive action they can, and STILL lose, that's when the law must apply.

The police charged the skipper of the powerboat, not the kayaker. You seem to believe otherwise, which surprises me no end.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 2:16 pm 
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tonystott wrote:
Kayakman, your comments are amazing, and akin to telling the rape victim she asked for it by wearing lipstick.

These guys, some of the most experienced kayakers in the country, were out in open water, minding their own business, and one of them guessed wrong whether to zig or zag to avoid the approaching power boat which was veering back and forth on its course by 15 degrees or so, WITHOUT ANYONE LOOKING OUT THE WINDSCREEN.

Yet you choose to blame the victim? I am mighty glad you cannot serve on any jury in my country.


No, not a rapist, something more like a pedestrian. These kayakers were far too close to a rapidly moving boat. If a jaywalker gets hit while crossing a street, who is at fault?


tonystott wrote:
OK, so we agree that a kayaker, or anyone else in a small boat, should not assume that their "right of way" is enough to save their skins.


What makes you think they had the right of way? Boat size is not relevant to determining right of way in a collision. In a head on collision course, both vessels are equally responsible for avoiding a collision. Horn signals or whistle blasts are used to determine whether port to port (preferred) or starboard to starboard. I must have missed where it was written that such signals were given or attempted.

tonystott wrote:
The police charged the skipper of the powerboat, not the kayaker. You seem to believe otherwise, which surprises me no end.


See point F. The police do not know how to implement Maritime Law.

tonystott wrote:
But if they take whatever evasive action they can, and STILL lose, that's when the law must apply.


They did not, "take whatever evasive action they can," in fact, I quote, "We turned to left to run parallel to it (the powerboat) thinking there would be plenty of room between us" plenty of room apparently means," still room to miss us by about 30m" or 100 feet. Stu (the author of the post) says in a later post, "Looking at it now we should not have changed (from) our original course (,) a direct line to shore and it would have passed behind us, The 3 of us are all experienced off shore fishermen and instinctively turned to the left to give plenty of clearance between us and the boat, it can be very deceiving at times,
Take care and don't take for granted the boat can see you."

I know the laws and I know that it is better to be alive and wronged than dead right. There is a genuine feeling among kayakers I have met that they have more right to be on the water, that somehow because we are paddle, peddle, or are sail powered, other boaters should get out of our way, shouldn't "wake us", shouldn't even be out on the water. Please someone explain this to me!

My opinion, which I was trying to share with the rest of the forum is that:

A. Boaters can't see you.
B. They are going much faster then YOU think, giving YOU and them very little time to react.
C. If you are not where a normal person would expect (ie. 500 feet off shore) don't expect that they are looking for something as small as you.
D. Ultimately, the final responsibility for avoiding a collision is the party who is aware that it may happen. Notice I said responsibility to avoid the collision, not who will get a ticket. They are NOT the same.
E. GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY OF BOATS THAT ARE BIGGER AND FASTER THAN YOU! ARE YOU STUPID? NO?, THEN PADDLE FASTER AT A RIGHT ANGLE TO THE POWERBOAT'S DIRECTION OF TRAVEL!!!
F. If you do E. and still get hit, then whine to the authorities.
G. The police have no jurisdiction on Navigable waters in the US, only the USCG. So call them, not the police.
H. The guy who got hit, Stu, admits he made a mistake by turning to a course parallel to the boat, which he thought then was a good idea at the time. He admits later that he didn't know the complications that the powerboat faced. If he did, perhaps he would have been able to write a post that said, "I was nearly hit by a 38m flybridge but my quick thinking and immediate evasion saved the day."
I. There was lots of blathering on the Aussie forum about radios and horns or whistles, don't bother. You will get hit before getting a response on VHF and they can't hear a whistle or horn. Remember, 2000 feet per minute, so you have very little time to make choices.
J. Only one action gives you a near 100% of survival; getting out of the way. Every other option carries a risk of not being seen or heard.
K. If you can maneuver and still make maximum headway then it would be worth trying radios, horns, whistles, or lights. Of course, if you can get out of the way, why are you complaining??? Problem solved!
L. Always cross busy channels at a right angle and wait till there is a lull in traffic.

I grew up looking both ways before crossing a street and I didn't cross until I could make it across the road without traffic stopping or slowing down for me. Now, the laws say cars must stop for people crossing the road and people walk without looking. Which is safer?

j

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:41 pm 
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So there is no need for a powerboat skipper to keep a lookout as everyone else has to take avoiding action.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:06 am 
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tonystott wrote:
So there is no need for a powerboat skipper to keep a lookout as everyone else has to take avoiding action.


Who said that?

But sadly this is a worst case scenario you better should count on as a rule if you are sitting in a kayak.

If we are talking about big commercial merchant ships, there are maybe no lookout personal at all on the bridge.
Scary but true.

br
thomas


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 1:42 am 
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THAT is the point I was trying to make to you in the first place. I was trying to caution you to not place much faith in the effectiveness of a radar reflector, and that you would have to "save yourself" by making sure you are not in harm's way in the first place. I think we got sidetracked with that story I quoted... the bottom line is that your planned journey is going to need your extremely careful navigation to minimise the possibility of your course coinciding with that of a commercial vessel, as you won't be able to count on their taking any avoiding action, no matter how effective your radar reflector, strobe light, flares, VHF signal or whatever

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:12 am 
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Well, I have checked out costs for a non active radar reflector and they are low. The weight is also acceptable. So the idea is not yet ready for the trash bin.

As I said before, I will have to make absolutely everything I can to be seen.

br
thomas


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:37 pm 
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The best of ANY Hobie is being able to turn and move fast!
Nothing is flawless. I assure you that when I am out in the big boy lane, I am.
Hell, I was nearly run over in a 50' sailboat once by a cargo ship in the channel off Catalina. I no longer trust any one thing

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:49 pm 
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Kal-P-Dal wrote:
Well, I have checked out costs for a non active radar reflector and they are low. The weight is also acceptable. So the idea is not yet ready for the trash bin.

As I said before, I will have to make absolutely everything I can to be seen.

br
thomas

I think you are still missing my point.. What you need to do is get the clear mindset that you ARE INVISIBLE to other vessels, no matter shat you actually have done, and plan your actions accordingly. If you ARE spotted, that should be thought of as a bonus.

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:44 pm 
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tonystott wrote:
I think you are still missing my point.. What you need to do is get the clear mindset that you ARE INVISIBLE to other vessels, no matter shat you actually have done, and plan your actions accordingly. If you ARE spotted, that should be thought of as a bonus.


No I'am not missing your point.

I don't trust radar reflectors, passive or active. I am invisible. There are no lookout on any bridge. Powerboats are not looking for me and can't hear me. Every other boat or vessel are convinced that they are alone in the sea.

I'am already beyond that. Now, I still have to do everything I possibly can to be seen.
I'am looking for the bonus. :)

br thomas


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:19 pm 
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A friend of mine informed me about a device that might be useful to those of us worried about being run over by large commercial vessels.
Large vessels now are mandated to have Automatic Identification System devices installed. The AIS device picks up a gps signal and then rebroadcasts the vessel's location plus ID to all similarly equipped ships.
You can now buy a handheld version...you are given a unique ID along with the device.
As you sail, the AIS sends out your location and ID to all commercial ships in your vicinity. You don't need to worry about the ship's radar not being able to detect you. Your location and ID shows up on their plotter screens.
All commercial maritime vessels are now required to have an AIS system operating.
But warning...you still have to worry about smaller vessels which do not carry an AIS or a larger vessel not in compliance.


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 12:41 pm 
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I was discussing this very issue yesterday with a USCG bizillion ton friend of mine and he gave me a great scenario.
"In the middle of the night you are crossing a rural highway on foot. There are no street lights. No moon or stars. You are dressed in all black. Should the truck driver feel badly for the rest of his / her life for running you over because they could not stop in time?"
"Same thing but you have cloths on that at least reflect light, let's say all white. This time you do not stand your ground and get out of their way. Sure you can be pissed and scared over it all but you are alive to do so."

Electronics are changing fast and becoming more affordable. Most do not need AIS but the company that makes a small one is the big winner.

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2011 AI in Red Hibiscus
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 1:03 pm 
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Crazy4DaRiver wrote:
I was discussing this very issue yesterday with a USCG bizillion ton friend of mine and he gave me a great scenario.
"In the middle of the night you are crossing a rural highway on foot. There are no street lights. No moon or stars. You are dressed in all black. Should the truck driver feel badly for the rest of his / her life for running you over because they could not stop in time?"
"Same thing but you have cloths on that at least reflect light, let's say all white. This time you do not stand your ground and get out of their way. Sure you can be pissed and scared over it all but you are alive to do so."

Electronics are changing fast and becoming more affordable. Most do not need AIS but the company that makes a small one is the big winner.


Also ships in confined waters (which may not be evident, they draw 40 feet of water) may not be able to change course and might not be able to stop in time to avoid a small craft. It takes 5~7 boat lengths to stop which, for the largest ships, is a mile and a half.

There is a device called FLIR which can see though fog and at night, if they have a handheld version, it may be worthwhile.

Certainly would be worth learning the various lighting schemes for boats, ships, tugs and barges, and other vessels. It is very easy to pass behind a tug and get run over by its barge. There are also specific sounds made by vessels...

cheers,

J

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