Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:42 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 59 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: AI Crossbar Problem?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:48 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2047
Location: High Point, NC
Just received my new Adventure Island an hour ago. Unwrapped, it becomes obvious that the front cross bar is out of square. So is the rear bar. Because they're both out of square, I wonder if this is something Hobie does on purpose?

Before I contact the dealer or remove and redrill the mounting holes, I'd appreicate hearing from any AI owners as to whether or not their cross bars are square to the hull. While I haven't mounted them yet, I believe my floats will be non-parallel to the hull due to this offset. Just not sure if this is something that might have been designed in for a reason.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: AI Crossbar Problem?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:20 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2698
Location: Kailua 96734
Bad, bad, bad. Unless you like to sail in circles. :(


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: AI Crossbar Problem?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:43 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2047
Location: High Point, NC
I stuck my head inside the hull and those mounting holes are molded in, so the mold has to be off (or again, was designed this way). I'm sure Hobie has more than one AI mold and they may not all be this way. But mine is off about 3/8 inch on one side. Doesn't sound like much, but my floats aren't pointing the same direction my hull is. Just a bit off, but for a $4000 boat I'm not sure I like this.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: AI Crossbar Problem?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:59 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2698
Location: Kailua 96734
Your picture is a little off kilter Tom, but not as much as the bars.

From where we sit, it looks like the brass plugs were misplaced or the hull may have flexed when cooling. The right crossbar mount seems too low and inside.

Are all of the connector points rotated the same degree? Including the rear Aka brace balls?

If so, extending out to the Amas, the offset error will be amplified. One Ama should be leading the other. Can you measure this?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: AI Crossbar Problem?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:09 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2047
Location: High Point, NC
Yes, it is. Not by a large amount. An inch.

I'm missing some parts so I can't sail it this weekend anyway. It'll give me time to decide what to do with the boat.

I know plastic boats aren't going to be exact. But I have an eye for square and this bothers me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: AI Crossbar Problem?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:25 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2698
Location: Kailua 96734
It isn't unusual to see blems and bumps on a new hull, but that's not a cosmetic problem. It's a critical measurement.

Can you check other boats in the dealers inventory?. That should clear things up.

If the hull flexed, you may also want to check for poor hatch seal alignment and mirage drive insertion.

If you decide to keep it, consider asking for a discount. That hull appears to be a "2nd" and should be demo priced at best.

Good luck. Post some more shots when you get her together.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: AI Crossbar Problem?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:37 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2047
Location: High Point, NC
I bought it from an out of state dealer (our in-state dealers don't stock these). They're good people and called me a little bit ago. Like Hobie, they'll be on top of it.

The stuff I work with requires greater precision than this. Maybe a plastic sailboat isn 't affected by a quarter inch here or an inch there. I really don't know. My question was really to ascertain if anyone else noticed this on their boat. If there is only one AI mold, then all of them have to be like this and I'll just get over it. If everybody else's is square, then I'll rethink it.

I do understand the ins and outs of rotomolded plastic kayaks (Andy Zimmerman at Wilderness Systems and more recently Legacy Paddlesports has run me around his plants many times - I've seen the process first hand). These aren't exactly precision machined parts. Just not sure how close they should turn out.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: AI Crossbar Problem?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:39 pm 
Offline
Hobie Tech / Moderator

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:34 pm
Posts: 192
Location: Hobie Cat: Oceanside, CA
Unfortunately they do vary some. One inch difference between the left and right ama isn't too far off in my opinion. Part of what makes this look worse than it is I think is that the yellow warning labels are tilted a little in the other direction. I would guess that that wall isn't quite perpindicular to the boat.

The process of making a rotomolded process leaves a bit of variation from the original plug. We first create a plug that is a certain percentage oversized from the intended finished product. That is then sent out to have a mold made. The hulls then shrink considerably when the come out of the mold as the cool. This is most often where the variation comes from. Certain parts of the kayaks (drivewells, crossbar mounts...) have pieces we mount or put in the kayak to maintain its shape as they cool.

The molds are very difficult to modify so once they are made some asymetric aspects become part of a whole lot of kayaks. We've run into some issues with cockpits being slightly narrower in the front so when the pedals are completely extended in the 7th position, just before the fins hit the bottom of the kayak, the pedal on one side may hit the cockpit. Very rarely an issue, but it is the way it is in some models. We try to fix it when we can.

I'm sorry it is this way, but the kayak should not have any any variance in the performance because of it. I hope you enjoy your new AI! Be sure to share some photos once you get it in the water too!

_________________
Brendan Castile


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: AI Crossbar Problem?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:35 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:32 am
Posts: 1783
Location: Calga NSW, Australia
Wouldn't the alignment of the ball posts, where the rear aka braces attach, be the critical factor for the alignment of the amas?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: AI Crossbar Problem?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:55 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2698
Location: Kailua 96734
It would, and often does effect the toe-in or out of the Akas. More common to see this kind of variation, I think, and it's more likely to effect both port and starboard equally.

But rotating your center load-bearing bars out of square with each other and the hull creates other issues. I have yet to see it this noticeable on an AI.

Have any of the old-timers here dealt with or seen "rotational" defects like this? K-Bob? :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: AI Crossbar Problem?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:04 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2047
Location: High Point, NC
If worse comes to worse, I'll completely cut out the molded-in area where the cross bar is currently attached and re-fabricate it from the ground up to fasten square.

For the time being I'll let it lie and see what other AI owners have to say about their own. No wind predicted for this weekend anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: AI Crossbar Problem?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:13 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2229
Location: Maui, Hawaii
Nope! I've seen over 50 AI's and I've never seen one bad enough to notice.

_________________
Image
http://KayakingBob.com - - - - - Hobie Island Sailing since 2006 - - - - - 2011 & 2012 Hobie AIs and a 2012 TI


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: AI Crossbar Problem?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:23 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 1494
Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Tom, there is absolutely no way I would attempt to fix that issue by radically cutting and replacing. If the problem is that bad (and I too think the relationship with the stickers makes it look far worse) Hobie will look after you under warranty. You try and fix it yourself, and bang goes your warranty on the hull. No way...

If you ignore the stickers, the crossbar looks almost square compares to the foot "scallops", but your best bet is to measure from the tip of the bow to the outside edge of the crossbar. Then, to provide a further reference, measure the distance between front and rear crossbars.

You will then have solid measurements to work with.

Good luck

_________________
Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM"
www.scenefromabove.com.au


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: AI Crossbar Problem?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:29 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2047
Location: High Point, NC
I haven't looked at the stickers - I was going by a very accurate measurement. I never trust the eye over a verifiable measurement.

The measurement was taken from the front of the bow, with a no-stretch chain, oriented the same way for both sides. The starboard crossbar mounting hardware is 5/16ths+ of an inch further back than the one on the port side.

The first thing my buddy said (he was here when it showed up and helped me upwrap it) was, "That sure looks crooked." It did to me, too, but again, I never trust my eyes against a good measurement.

I don't think the problem is "that bad" but at $4000 I just want to make sure what I got was as good as these boats routinely are. Beyond that I'll sit on it and if or when I decide I can't live with it I'll cut it out and refab it. I have the expertise and equipment to do it. But again, I'm letting it sit for awhile. I'm not upset (this is my 4th Hobie and won't be my last) and just wanted some feedback from other owners.

I do appreciate the feedback thus far. Thanks.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: AI Crossbar Problem?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:52 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2229
Location: Maui, Hawaii
I wonder how the mast and sail will look if its top race (balls) is off by that much on one side?

_________________
Image
http://KayakingBob.com - - - - - Hobie Island Sailing since 2006 - - - - - 2011 & 2012 Hobie AIs and a 2012 TI


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 59 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group