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 Post subject: Against The Wind
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:28 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:11 pm
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This is a Lesson Learned story and I am open to some constructive criticism and ideas. I am an experienced sailor on "big" boats and I have had my TI since Nov 12. I have had the TI out in Tampa Bay with winds up to 20 Mph...was hitting 8.5 knots at times. I Took the TI out near Ft Desoto on Friday with consistent 25 to 30 mph winds, gusts to 35. Intent was to sail around Shell Key. So, I headed out Bunces pass on a nice beam reach with half the sail out and doing 6.7 kts. As I rounded thevsouth side of head Shell Key I turned to a northerly heading keeping Shell Key to starboard. Beautiful downwind run surfing some nice swells. Passed the little sand island to port and thought to have lunch there....until I saw a lone jet ski had beat me to it and there was a a naked couple having a session on the sand. I sailed 100' from them and they never knew I was there...either the TI is stealthy or the....will never mind...I digress. So, I sailed around the north side of Shell Key, now on a screaming beam reach. Then turned into the little pass that separates Shell from Teirra Verde. I am now going into a 30 mph wind. I start peddling like mad and eventually make it through. The inside between Shell and Tieera Verde is extremely shallow...even for the TI with the drive fins. I was going to peddle the TI for 1.5 miles in a narrow channel back to my launch site. Here is where problems started. I quickly realized the TI with a furled sail has a lot of wind age. I could make very minimal headway peddling like crazy so I unfurled a little sail to tack back and forth. Well the tacks were so short due to depth limitations that it was useless...I only managed to bury the drives in the sand...and the centerboard would kick up. With No centerboard down I would just side slip and, at times when I turned the rudder to tack...the TI just kept moving forward at speed. I made it over to a small beach behind someone's $5 million mansion to weigh my options. I thought about reversing my path and sail the gulf back into the wind where I could at least do some long tacks, but was not real excited about this as the waves were pretty high due to the 30 mph wind. Fortunately, I flagged down a boat who gave me a tow back to my launch point. The guy would not except $20 from....boating is a great community. Okay, so here my lessons learned and some thoughts:
-that was my first time sailing there...probably should not have done so in high winds. I did not know I would not have maneuver room to sail back...I only did a map recon
-I am stupid! In those winds you always sail your upwind leg first. I should have adjusted my sail plan to accommodate conditions
-I gave to much reliance on the mirage drive. Although great, don't think you are going to peddle against a strong for very long
-always carry a good anchor to toss out and rest some. I did and it help catch my breath. I had a folding graphnel anchor that sucked as the TI needs something better dur to windage. I use a Cooper anchor, which holds well...even without chain
-in addition to a VHF and other safety gear, carry at least 50' of line in the event you need a tow
-be smart on the conditions and where you sail. I am thinking of getting a battery and 55 lbs trolling motor to push the TI in situations like that. However, the battery and motor would be clumsy and take a lot of cargo space I use for fishing gear. The evolve is just too much $$$
Well, it was a good experience....can't wait for the next adventure


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 Post subject: Re: Against The Wind
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:53 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1452
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
MikeSail :
Don't feel bad I have been caught in the same situation many times (you would think I would have learned by now).
I don't know of any boat that can sail directly up wind in a 30mph wind. One problem with the TI is because it is so light, even if you have room to tack, it is near impossible to make any headway in 30mph plus winds upwind. I sail in that same area (around Ft Desoto) quite often and have been stuck in that narrow area just north of the main swimming beach/Ft Desoto fighting a strong headwind myself trying to get back to the launch ramps.

One of our favorite things to do is launch at the boat ramp then sail out to Egmont Key where we meet some power boating friends and anchor just off shore on the windward side of Egmont Key, it's a 6-7 mile haul out there and you have to go across the deep cruise ship channel where it can get a little rough.
When we first bought our TI first time out we got caught just outside Big pass Down in Sarasota near sunset (when the wind dies), and the tide was going out, the current there is around 5-6mph. Both my wife and I had to peddle as hard as we could for an hour and a half to get back in thru the pass. Needless to say I got a free ticket from wife to buy an emergency gas motor, just in case anything like that happened again (no it was not a planned scheme on my part just to get a new motor). Now when I get in real trouble I reef all the sails and motor home (with my tail between my legs).

Now here is something I do on my TI all the time, but I am not recommending you try this until you become way experienced because it can be very dangerous. Since I have a jib (which helps a lot on upwind) in high winds my boat wants to always round up into the wind and stall. In a 25 mph headwind I head straight into the wind and open both my sails all the way and pull them very tight. I then begin pedaling and turn just slightly off the wind maybe 5-10 degrees off the wind, if you go any more the sails will fill and you will capsize. As long as I keep pedaling and using my rudder to keep me held off the wind I can make headway at around 4mph. You are basically sailing directly into a 25 mph headwind. If the wind is variable and switching you have to be ready to turn into the wind if the sails start to catch too much wind ( or you will capsize). I have not tried this in 30 mph winds ( I don't go out in 30 mph winds anymore, (been there done that too scary for me)), not sure if it would still work, but I have used this method in solid 25 plus mph winds on many occasions. Actually I tend to sail directly into the wind even in low winds if that is the direction I have to go. This is only possible because of the mirage drive, in any of these conditions if I stop pedaling my boat rounds up into the wind and stalls. ( I tend to pedal 100% of the time whenever I am out anyway (my exercise thing))
Now I have no idea whatsoever if this will work without a jib, I have not tried to sail my TI without my jib in over 3 yrs and 2500 sailing miles now. Actually if it gets rough and windy out there (like in a storm) I always put my main away and just sail on the jib, I have much better control of the boat, and in 15mph wind just flying the jib alone propels my TI at around 5-6 mph with no risk of capsizing from gusts. I typically fly just my jib to come into the harbor (where you need good control because the other sail boats hate it when you run into them in the harbor LOL).
I would be interested to know if this technique of sailing directly into the wind will work on a standard TI, can be dangerous though.
Hope this helps
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Against The Wind
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:53 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 138
Location: Houston, TX
Thanks for sharing this with us Mike. These are the types of post that I appreciate the most. I have a 55# thrust trolling motor and an AI and I cand proomise you that it would not have enough thrust to get me out of that situation let alone a TI. Your going to nee a gas or propane powered. Motor for that. I have limited my sailing to winds less than 17 to 18 mph. MAybe a TI can do better, not sure.

I hav my own leaning experience to share- will have to wait until I'm back home on the computer though . Will share later.


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 Post subject: Re: Against The Wind
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:43 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2246
Location: Maui, Hawaii
Above 30mph it's nearly impossible to make headway sailing in an AI or TI. We keep 2 ball bungees on our aka to strap down our sails to lessen the wind resistance (and also for large shore break on landing). Best is to have an alternate safe landing spot... down wind, but not always possible.

Good report.

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http://KayakingBob.com - - - - - Hobie Island Sailing since 2006 - - - - - 2011 & 2012 Hobie AIs and a 2012 TI


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 Post subject: Re: Against The Wind
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:45 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2098
Location: High Point, NC
If you are pedaling into the wind, you'll want to move to the forward seat and do it from there. This puts the nose down a little and moves the point of effort forward so the nose doesn't try to swing around on you nearly as much.


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 Post subject: Re: Against The Wind
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:18 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1452
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
MikeSail said:
Quote:
Passed the little sand island to port and thought to have lunch there....until I saw a lone jet ski had beat me to it and there was a a naked couple having a session on the sand. I sailed 100' from them and they never knew I was there...either the TI is stealthy or the....will never mind...I digress.


The saying on the forum used to be "it didn't happen without pictures", now days it never happened unless the GoPro is rolling. I'm sure they would have said something if you had been standing on your boat with a GoPro filming (a true GoPro Hero moment). LOL


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 Post subject: Re: Against The Wind
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:01 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:11 pm
Posts: 57
I think I will limit my adventures to winds no more than 15 kts....and make sure I have plenty of room to tack. Great info on the trolling motor. I think a 2.5 hp Tohatsu is in my future...maybe sooner if I get the wife out sailing....lol. I guess if you consider space and weight of a battery, a small outboard is preferable. I guess with an engine you technically have to register the TI. Where is the best place to mount a small outboard...aka bar, mount in rod holder, or mount a board to a milk crate? One thing about sailing...even after sailing for 25years...you eventually do something stupid that humbles you!


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 Post subject: Re: Against The Wind
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:48 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
MikeSail :
If you are thinking about an outboard, here is a link to my setup with an Island hopper motor. It works and I haven't had any problems but I feel I should have bought the Honda 2.3 hp.
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=40482

The motor mount is just PVC tubing with two steel rods thru, glued into a 2x4.

The setup (and motor) that I really like is on this thread ( viewtopic.php?f=69&t=47001 )
I really love his motor, and he has a really well done motor mount. If I can ever afford to get a Honda, I will make a new motor mount like his (my current motor mount would not work with the Honda).

We go quite a way out at times, mostly down in the keys (mostly scuba diving), where some of the reefs are 5-6 miles out. Many times a good day for us can cover 50-60 miles total, so we kind of need the gas motor just as an emergency backup. Believe it or not it has saved our butts on several occations. I always carry at least 50 miles of fuel (a 1 gallon gas can) plus a full tank.
Good luck
Bob
My motor weighs 20 lbs, and I always mount it to the boat just in case of trouble, but seldom actually use it.


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 Post subject: Re: Against The Wind
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:32 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:11 pm
Posts: 57
Fusion,
Is your TI registered since you have an engine? I think that since the TI is over 18' it technically has to be. ..although mine is not. If you hang an engine on it, I think it does. The honda 2.3 seems right as the tohatsu 2.5 weighs 40 lbs. What does the honda weigh?


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 Post subject: Re: Against The Wind
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:56 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1452
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Mike sail:
The Honda weighs 27 lbs.
that's a funny story about registration, I ws actually pulled over by the police when I first got my TI, I tried to out run them but they had a Scarab (Sarasota is the go fast boat capital). I suspect he just wanted to look at my boat, he said since it was over 16 ft it should be registered. I didn't get a ticket or anything. I was already planning to add the motor anyway, so I went to the tag office trying to register the kayak. They said I had to have a HID document from the manufacturer and a title to register the craft. I went back to the dealer and asked for the HID origin docs, they had no idea what it was, no one had ever registered their kayak before. Two months later I finally got the right docs and was able to register. It costs about $50 bucks a year, but I think worth it in case the boat is stolen.
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Against The Wind
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:36 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 138
Location: Houston, TX
In Texas both the AI and TI need to be registered.

My 55#thrust electric trolling motor moves my AI at about 4.5mph. I use small batteries that last about 1.25 hrs at full speed.

Here is a clip of a AI using a 2.5hp gas motor. All you want is about 10mph. Anything more and you may damage the boat or have a safety issue.



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 Post subject: Re: Against The Wind
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:05 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2098
Location: High Point, NC
I was surprised to find that the little lightweight Sevylor 18lb thrust motor will push the Tandem Island at 3.3 MPH. considering the size, weight and low amp-hour battery draw, it's quite surprising.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viE66Knbt4o


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 Post subject: Re: Against The Wind
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:38 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm
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Location: Houston, TX
I've come to the conclusion that trolling motors are great when the winds don't blow. but I don't have faith that anything that pushes us at less than 5mph can help us in serious currents or headwinds. When you need to react fast and with superhuman power, you don't want a motor taking up the mirage drive- like mine does. Maybe a trolling attached with Tom's motor mount (brilliant if you ask me) while you peddle the mirage drive for your life might be the answer.

Does anyone have experience using a trolling motor while also pedding a mirage dive into headwinds/current?


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 Post subject: Re: Against The Wind
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:56 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
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Location: High Point, NC
One thing worth mentioning is that if you know you're going to be using the motor in strong headwinds most of the time, is that the closer to the front of the boat you can mount the motor, so much the better. It's a lot easier to pull a boat into the wind than it is to push it into the wind.


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 Post subject: Re: Against The Wind
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:29 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1452
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I looked into electric motors when I was first looking at motors. Since my boat has sails, mirage drives, and paddles. My only circumstance for ever using my emergency motor is if I am in trouble. With the finite range of the electrics I felt that I have to have at a minimum of 50 miles range of reserve emergency power that will propel the boat at least as fast as the currents or against headwinds. I figured a min of 5 mph. I would have liked 7-8 mph just to make sure I can get in the passes in sarasota bay against the current, or back to my usual launch near Mallory square in key west (where the current is at least 6 mph). My emergency motor has saved our butts on many occasions, I simply don't go in the ocean without it. Of course everyone has different criteria and not many go out in big water.
Bob


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