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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:04 pm 
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I've used autorelease clamcleats on wooden boats before. Not sure if it would work with the TI rudder line, what with all the pulleys and lines and such, but here's the product:
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/cl ... /index.htm

If it were just a direct hauldown line to a cleat, it'd be a perfect solution.

I'm working two solutions - one for loss of steering line (happened to me three times so far in the last 6 outings) and one for a backup rudder. So it's either "carry a bunch of backup equipment" or "don't go more than a stone's throw away from the beach, and don't sail in offshore conditions, ever". Not real happy.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:18 pm 
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Nice find Rotorhead!

I'm thinking on adding a removable emergency tiller at the end of a rear haka on a TI3, but first I need to finally get building the TI3!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:21 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:42 pm 
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Oh! Oh!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:55 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:50 pm 
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RH:
That's the best solution I have seen so far. I think there is enough line between the opening in the hull and the rudder to be able to just add a small knot into the existing tan colored rudder up line. Then attach a larger rope to the knot. Then add that new cam lock to the deck somewhere near the back of the boat. The other end of the new rope would lead up into the passenger compartment somewhere (so you can grab and reset the line if it releases). Or alternately run the larger rope all the way up into the passenger compartment then mount the new cleat up there, following the gunwale of the boat.
Just leave all the old rudder up/down system in place and use it to raise and lower the rudder just like normal, but now you wouldn't need to cleat the rudder down line up front (you would use that new cleat to lock the rudder down, with a much larger rope, though the old system should still work fine). I'm of course assuming that new cleat cannot grab on the skinny rudder up/down line.
As a side note, I'm not sure they are using that special 1000lb test line inside the hull (that tan colored line). The black string inside the hull that goes around all the pulleys, then comes out the other end attached to the handles, and is attached to the bungy cord inside I suspect is a much inferior type line, I have broken that line several times now, and it's a very large pain to repair, ( I'm talking about the black cord they use that attaches to the handles).
I'm sure there are a dozen more ways to make something like this work, will be interesting to see what people come up with.


I love it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:05 pm 
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rotorhead wrote:
I've used autorelease clamcleats on wooden boats before. Not sure if it would work with the TI rudder line, what with all the pulleys and lines and such, but here's the product:
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/cl ... /index.htm

If it were just a direct hauldown line to a cleat, it'd be a perfect solution.

I'm working two solutions - one for loss of steering line (happened to me three times so far in the last 6 outings) and one for a backup rudder. So it's either "carry a bunch of backup equipment" or "don't go more than a stone's throw away from the beach, and don't sail in offshore conditions, ever". Not real happy.

Hold everything! If you have broken steering lines THREE TIMES IN SIX OUTINGS, something is very wrong. That rate of failure is massively higher than anyone else has mentioned here.

There surely must be a reason for this, and I would be very interested to find out exactly where the line broke on each occasion, as this should give a pointer into the cure.

It seems to me that working around the problem with additional hardware like cleats etc should only be a last resort.

Having said that, for the rudder down-line, that cleat does exactly what is required, although it is hard to see how to incorporate it onto the Island without some work, given the large travel of the down line. I suspect the line would need replacing with thicker line at the cockpit end, removal of the existing cleat, and fixing of the "breakaway cleat" aft of the mesh pocket.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:02 pm 
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Three failures:
First: line slipped out of the screw post at the rudder horn. Loss of steerage at sea with the kids. Fixed it with onboard tools, made it back to shore.

Second: Same thing, except this time the line shredded as it slipped the screw. Used a steering blade to get back to shore (we were not far out), again with kids. Returned to the dealer, had them re-rig and check all the lines.

Third: Same thing, slipped the post as I was working just upwind of a shallow reef (again with the kids), no time to repair. Paddled/peddled to safety. Will probably need new lines, again.

I agree there is something wrong. I posted on the topic and got a single reply (recommended I add SS washers under the screws).
-RH

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:12 pm 
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Thanks for the explanations. So the problem is not really the rudder line as such, but the reliability of attachment to the rudder. I think it was my suggestion regarding the stainless steel washeres, and I can only repeat same.Image
Note how the line has a full 360 degree loop around the screw.
The reason this works is simple really, instead of relying on the line being mostly held by the friction against the (sharp) screw threads, it is held by being compressed over quite a large area between two flat surfaces. The increased surface area adds to the friction, while the flat surfaces do less damage to the line.

Try it and you will solve your problems.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:03 am 
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Tony, I'm looking at your picture and it looks like your rudder line has a full 180 deg under the washer--not 360 deg like you say. Is your picture wrong--not what you currently have--or am I misunderstanding something?

Keith

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:16 pm 
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Keith, the rigging I have goes as such: The line departs the hull and heads aft where it goes under the rudder horn, vertically up through the hole in the horn, and then under the screw (not wrapped around the screw, just under the screw head). I thought this was wrong; when I returned it for re-rigging they told me that was how it was supposed to be. Clearly it doesn't hold as it has slipped out three times (and in moderate conditions, not forcing the rudder against the helm or anything).

Tony, who has many great ideas, put a SS washer under the screw and put a full turn on the line - 360 degrees, meaning the line comes up from the hole in the rudder horn, and does a full wrap on the screw. Makes perfect sense. I think in the picture you just can't see that it's a full turn as the washer is hiding the line.

My idea was to do the same, with the addition of the line doing a wrap around the rudder horn hole - thus that wrap will hold a good portion of force/tension on the line, rather than the majority of tension being held by the screw.

I like the the system...I just don't trust it, yet. I'm trying to avoid an engineering project that results in making things more complicated or having to carry a bunch of backup gear. My latest good idea is for a tiller/steering oar combo. If the lines fail, I could attach it to the rudder via pit pins (through the rudder horn pukas) quickly and have a basic tiller; the other end would be a steering blade so that if the rudder itself fails I can steer canoe-style (although I have yet to successfully go upwind with the TI using a steering blade in winds over 10kts). Or maybe it would drop into a PVC adapter set into my trolling rod holder rig. I don't know.

-RH

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:20 pm 
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Also...the line used for steering seems much less substantial than the spectra I have for kite lines, which is rated at 600 pounds I believe. The TI line will "flatten" when you pinch it; my kite line does not.

How hard is it to re-rig the steering lines oneself? Anyone got a tutorial? I know how they run...I've spend my time with my inspection mirror inside the hull...but has anyone actually done a re-rig other than the dealer?

-RH

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:34 pm 
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Chekika wrote:
Tony, I'm looking at your picture and it looks like your rudder line has a full 180 deg under the washer--not 360 deg like you say. Is your picture wrong--not what you currently have--or am I misunderstanding something?

Keith

Keith, if the line enters the circle at 12 o'clock, and departs at 12 o'clock, it must have gone a 360 degree full circle. If it was only 180 degrees, the line would come back in the original direction at 6 o'clock. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:49 pm 
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Here is a picture of my rudder line connections on my AI (not a tandem):

Image

Those simple connections--almost 360 deg around screw--have never failed (slipped) in 2 yrs.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:58 pm 
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Tony--I just don't understand what I'm looking at. I look at your picture--it seems very straight-forward-- the line going under the washer-screw is going in on the right and coming out on the left (lower single washer-screw)--180 deg, or going in at the bottom of picture, coming out at top--180 deg. What are you looking at which is different from what I'm looking at???

Here is part of your picture. This is what I'm calling "180 deg." What are you calling "360 deg"?
Image

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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