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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:50 pm 
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Keith, 360 degrees means a full circle. In fact the photo shows the line going not only 360 degrees, but an extra 90 odd degrees. As I said before a 180 degree turn is a U-turn, which would see the line coming out on the left side in the picture, pointing back to the bottom (without going completely round the screw).

Your lines appear to go through a bit more than 180 degrees (assuming they don't pass an extra full circle under the screw which is not visible)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:01 pm 
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I'm lost. We are clearly using different definitions. Maybe check my previous post w/ your picture and my "In" and "Out" notations to see what I'm talking about. No sense talking about this any more because we clearly are talking about different things.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:13 pm 
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Keith, if you do a U-turn in your car (eg, go back to where you started), you turn 180 degrees. If you continue to turn, so you then finish up in the same direction you started, you have completed another 180 degree turn, ie. 360 degrees in total, which is a full circle.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:34 pm 
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Here is my definition: if you are at the North Pole, and come around clockwise to east, you've gone 90 deg (sorry for being so provincial and thinking of us up here in the northern hemisphere.) You continue your clockwise circle getting to the South Pole, 180 deg (that is what your picture in my post looks like, the "In (North)," "Out (South).") If you continue clockwise, you get to the west (270 deg), and finally back to the North Pole (360 deg.) It seems, since I came in at the North Pole and exited at the North Pole, you are calling that a U-turn, 180 deg. Yes?

Here is my annotated picture of your connection, again, but with the "In, Out" reversed to better fit my North Pole, South Pole (180 deg) analogy.
Image

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


Last edited by Chekika on Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:40 pm 
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OH MY GOD I AM SO SORRY I BROUGHT THIS UP.

Inventing a time machine so I can go back and slap myself before I post here.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:42 pm 
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rotorhead wrote:
How hard is it to re-rig the steering lines oneself? Anyone got a tutorial? I know how they run...I've spend my time with my inspection mirror inside the hull...but has anyone actually done a re-rig other than the dealer?

-RH

Most of us that bought the early TI's replaced the lines with a kit Hobie sent out:
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=35376. Lots of tips in the following pages of that post.

Keith,
In your pic labelled In/Out, it's not obvious but Tony's line is fully wrapped around the screw before exiting at "Out", therefore 360+ degrees.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:00 pm 
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Great, Stringy, that makes it clear. Not sure why Tony & I could not have said that. His lines are so "flat" looking, that I did not think they were overlapped some place. My error.

Bottom line, Tony's system works, and on my AI, my simple screw system with almost 360-deg loop (U-turn?) around screw works. Tony's washer-screw (360+ deg wrap) looks very solid. Seems like a very good "upgrade" at the rudder.

Yes, rh, be careful what you ask around here (I think you suggested essentially what Stringy said). Usually somebody weighs in to straighten things out. Thanks, Stringy.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:57 pm 
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RH:
What Tony does I think is pretty much all of us do. I've had 8 Hobies now all with the same rudder setup. When I get a new boat I automatically take the rudder screws out and put a stainless washer under the screw. I the adjust the rudder lines to my liking and loop the lines 360 around the scre under the washer. The washer does two things. It first off gives you much more surface area gripping the string, and second it prevents the screw from ripping the line up quickly ( if you don't have a washer on the the line just shreds quickly).
Honestly I've been doing that for so long now I don't even think to mention it to new users (sorry). I'm sure Tony and the others automatically all do the same without even mentioning it on the forum (probably why you didn't find much on the subject.
After looping around the screw, I then wrap the excess line around the incoming line with a clove hitch knot followed by a bow knot (like a double knot shoe lace knot). This seems to be the only type knot that I have found that doesn't slip with the spectra line besides cinch knots.
I generally don't have slippage but I do have to adjust the rudder lines a couple times a year as weather changes.
I've snapped several rudder lines but almost never way back there, they usually break inside the hull somewhere ( always the most difficult places).
Once you put the washers on I think your problems will go away completely.
Again sorry nobody thought to mention it (besides Tony), as I'm pretty sure most everyone does this.
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:14 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
I've snapped several rudder lines but almost never way back there, they usually break inside the hull somewhere (always the most difficult places).

Bob, please tell us about your broken rudder lines. This line is tough and not likely to break because of longitudinal physical stress when deployed as a rudder line. Please clarify about which lines are breaking, "up/down" or "tiller" lines? Maybe you have spoken to this earlier on this thread? The Tandem must have more lines running about inside the hull than the AI. Is this an "inherent" problem with the Tandem? Have you made fixes so broken rudder lines do not occur on your boat now? Is this part of the reason you have added a motor(s) to your Tandem--broken rudder line, no problem?

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:48 am 
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Keith:
The first one was on my first TI with the twist and stow rudder, the line snapped inside the hull near the rearmost hatch. If you recall those rudders tended to rise up and under steer badly, while cranking on the rudder hard while at speed the line snapped.
The second failure was the steering line snapped in the area between the rear hatch and the rear seat. I suspect the line was rubbing on something inside near the rear rod holders, and just freyed and failed.

The third one failed up front. The turn around pulley up at the front somehow spun around on itself forcing the line to rub against itself, where friction from the line rubbing probably freyed the line (probably got caught on my lost tennis shoe). The steering was a little harder for a while just prior to it breaking and I couldn't figure out why (that darn shoe).

I haven't had any problems with the steering lines in over a couple years now.

The rudder up down line are another problem, mine has broken several times just ahead of where the tan down rudder line (the one attached to the rudder) attaches to the black line inside the hull (where the bungy cord also attaches). This has now broken several times an inch or so ahead of the cinch knot. I keep on shortening the black line and knot it at the new end, fortunately there is excess black line built into the system. As a side note I also have trouble with the 2/1 purchase pully for the front pull down cleat, it keeps spinning around on itself binding up the black line. After a while it gets so tight you can pull the cleat as tight as you like and it doesn't hold the rudder down. I have to take it all apart untangle the black line from the pulley, then put it back together again.
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:48 am 
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Is there any reason why the rudder can't just be held down with a bungee that the uphaul works against? It strikes me it might be simpler and also have tha benefit of having some give if/when the rudder hits something. This was a pretty common solution on small sailing dinghies as I recall when I was a kid

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:41 am 
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That would certainly make cleating the rudder down a not as an dangerous affair as it is currently if you happen to forget to I un-cleat it in shallow water. Most of my rudder pin breaks are probably from forgetting to uncleat my rudder when I get into shallows. Basically all that is needed is two knots somewhere in the rudder down line ( back by the rearmost hatch) basically you would bunch up the (unbroken) line back there and attach some 3/8 bungy between the knots. This way you can cleat the rudder with various degrees on holding down power depending on conditions. Typically if I'm in shallows I'm not moving very fast so with a weak setting on the bungy the rudder would act like the center board and just push up and over shallow objects then return back down. If your all out sailing at speed you can just pull the down line tight so it locks like present.
I like the idea and don't see a downside.
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:59 am 
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Wow, that is an impressible list, Bob. Except for the rudder line guide causing my lines to be chaffed & frayed when I trailered my boat (http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=315) I've had no problems with either of our AIs.

Bob, you and many others sail your boat much more than I do. My sailing is pretty much done on camping trips. In any case, this might explain your greater incidence of line failures & other problems. Also, I suspect, just the extra line routing & pulleys in a Tandem may make it more prone to rudder line problems compared to an AI. You by necessity are probably an expert in the Tandem rudder line system. If I had as many rudder line problems, I probably could not do my week-long, solo camping trips along coastal Everglades. Fortunately, knock on wood, my AI has been problem-free on my camping trips other than an occasional broken rudder pin with my original 2007 AI (since replaced by a 2011 with vertical rudder and no broken pins.)

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:25 pm 
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Our 2010 TI has had no rudder line problems at all and we are still on the original rudder pin that came with the upgraded rudder which I fitted about 3 years ago. Earlier this month we did two camping trips, one for 7 days and then a week later a 5 day trip. We were loaded up as we had to take water as well (like your Everglades trips Keith) and the TI performed flawlessly. As we were base camping I was able to solo the TI more than I've done before and I am now a solo TI convert. It will be what I take on my next solo camping trip!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:38 pm 
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Keith:
You have to realize even my seemingly big list of failures over the last 4 years you have to realize I am out on the water every single weekend all year round, and my typical outing is at least 15 miles, sometimes if I can get away with it I'll go out more if I can. Heck when we are at our Key West place I will go out every day if I can.
Last Saturday I went out with the Hobie Island club, I had to make a minor repair before going out so I had them leave without me (my jib halyard shredded when trying to hoist the jib (it was just worn out, and being paracord, once the outer skin is gone (where it snaps into the cleat) you have to replace it ( a bad rope choice)). They were about 45 minutes ahead of me the plan was to follow Long Boat key along the west shore line. I took off going north following the shore looking for them, I ended up missing them completely (they followed the east shore instead 3 miles east of where I thought they were supposed to go) and ended up at Jew Fish key (about 10 miles north of launch). There I turned around and came back where I found them about halfway back where we all anchored and had a nice lunch in the shallows. While with the group I had my motors tilted up and just sailed with them (@ 3-4 mph) until I ran aground in some shallows and they all got way ahead of me ( I had to walk out of the shallows (it was low tide). So I fired up my motors to catch up (again) when the wind completely died, they were all sitting in irons and pedaling about 3-4 miles north of the launch (doing maybe 2mph), so I decided to just pull ahead and go down to big pass (about 7 miles south of us at that point) and sail down there a bit while I was waiting (looking for good wind), then come back before they got back to the launch. All told I did 26 miles, and all of us had a nice outing ( I used a bucks worth of fuel total for the day).
The weekend before I went up to Anna Maria island to scope out dive sites offshore, that trip was over 30 miles.
Here is my way point track up there:
Image
There are too many shallow areas on the west side of the bay at low tide so I usually go up the east side (safer), BTW that's where I went aground last weekend on the west shore at low tide and had to walk out.

All in all I'm pretty sure I have over 6,000 sailing miles on my TI's with I suspect over 3000 miles on this 2012 TI. I used to worry about my TI's once the warranty ran out so I would replace them regularly, but I don't worry too much about that anymore, the boats are uber reliable in my opinion.
Now divide all those miles into the above failures and you have a pretty darn reliable boat. What truly amazes me is my mirage drives, I pedal 95% of the time and have never had a mirage drive failure, that's spread out over 8 hobie mirage boats since 2007.

BTW my exercise size program is to pedal my TI at least 15 miles every week, but there is no rule written that I have to go 2-3 mph, ( the reason I invented all the crap on my boat), some would call it cheating, I call it resourceful thinking. I normally get my 15 miles done in about 1.5 to 2 hrs (with my first stock TI that was 5-7 hrs on the water, obviously I set my initial goal a little too high ( LOL)). OK OK I'm a cheater...... These were the conditions I was allowed to buy my first TI initially, to be used in my exercise program (shortly after my heart attack), I've held faithful to that, pedaling my boat at least 15 miles per week for almost 4 1/2 yrs now (most weeks I double or triple that distance), and am actually in pretty good shape now, and have done quite a few 50-60 milers (definitely not at 2-3 mph). Everybody has to have a hobbie I guess. And given the number of exercise machines out there not being used, I feel I've done pretty well, plus have a good time doing it, seeing the outdoors (a great hobby).
Bob


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