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 Post subject: Insurance Problems - UK
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 8:29 am 
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Has anyone had any issues with insuring their Ti in the UK.
I have.
You may have read recent about thefts of bits off mine from Rockley Park and I am currently in "discussions" with the insurers about what bits of my Ti, if any are covered.
It would be interesting to hear anyone's experiences and who they are insured with
CC

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:54 am 
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Just an update as I am trying to bottom out what actually is insured as far as a Ti is concerned with the policy that I have.
Thanks for all the facebook comments.
Essentially I am being told that only parts of the boat are insured but not the complete thing, which is tricky with a Ti if your amas are not covered but your hull is.
Keep those comments and experiences coming either here or via the facebook pages and I will let you know more a soon as I do.
CC :?

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 11:35 am 
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Just heard back from the insurers and it is all rather a muddle.

I brought my Ti towards the end of last year and have been spending the winter building the Hakas and other bits you will see in the other threads around the site and on the Hobie Facebook pages.

When I brought it I enquired about insurance. Towergate Mardon were recommended to me by the guys that sold the boat to us and I had a nice chat with them. Also as part of the purchase deal I got a years storage down at Rockley Park. Fantastic I thought. Just wait for the weather.

So three months ago whilst stored down at Poole, under a Hobie cover. Locked to a trailer and with a trailer hitch on somebody lifted a load of bits off it. Seats, paddles, mirage drives, rod holders etc. basically rendering the boat useless. So straight away I got in touch with the insurance company to let them know.

Basically I am told that because the parts are removable from the boat that if they are left for "any length of time" they are not covered. Even if you stow them away out of sight in the hull. When pushed they say that bits that are too long to be practical to move are covered but this leaves a very grey area because most of the bits of our boats are demountable into smaller bits. Are the akas to covered. What about the tramps? . I have not really got any clear answers - Yet.

I will go and find the correspondence and you will see how it has gone.

so keep an eye out for Hobie bits floating about cheap. please
CC

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 11:38 am 
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My last letter to Towergate Mardon

Dear *****

I appreciate your efforts and we have discussed the matter further. My understanding is as follows, but would you please confirm the following facts as I understand them from our correspondence.



1 the insurance that I took out with Towergate Mardon was to insure a Hobie Tandem Island sailing kayak

2 Towergate Mardon are familiar with what a Hobie Tandem Island is and will have researched what one is as part of taking on the insurance.

3 The Hobie Tandem Island is a rotomoulded, plastic sailing kayak of a modular design as described in the Hobie literature about the craft.

4 A modular design, in this context, means that the parts that make the sailing kayak up are interchangeable and fit together in a way to make them removable and adaptable.

5 Examples of such modular elements are the Akas and Amas ( the outriggers and outrigger hulls ), the mast and sail, the mirage drive pedals etc. and it is the combination of these parts that make the craft. In other words without the modular components it ceases to function.

6 The modular components that form part of the craft, by their nature, are not, and cannot be, fixed permanently or locked to the hull.

7 The insurance policy requires the hull to be locked to the trailer. It requires the trailer to be secured. (In this instance the hull was locked to the trailer which was itself secured with a hitch lock)

8 Taking into account the nature of the craft, its modular design and the requirements of the insurance policy, the parts that make up the craft cannot be locked to the trailer individually or the hull (which with this type of craft is impossible) nor because of the roto-moulded nature of the hull, the parts that can be stored inside the hull cannot be "locked" as it is made of plastic.



Do you therefore conclude that:

• all of the components that make up the craft except the actual hull are not covered by the insurance (for example the mast and sail). In this instance that would constitute say 75% of the value of the craft. Does that mean that all of the Tandem Islands and Islands made by Hobie and insured under similar policies are not insured correctly.

• or

• because of the modular nature of the craft all of the components that comprise the craft are covered by the insurance

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 11:38 am 
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Here is the reply

We can confirm that the underwriters are aware of the type of craft you have and its characteristics.

They have commented that with regards to the components that make up the craft, except the actual hull, these would be similar to mast and sails so wherever possible, and if the craft is being left for any period, these need to be removed. Items such as outriggers, as they form the basis of the boat, would be difficult and inconvenient to keep removing each time. Ideally if any items are to be left, then a wire cable with a padlock can be thread around them so that if they are stolen at least there is a sign of forcible removal.

If your entire boat would have been removed whilst on its trailer then as long as it was secured with a hitchlock or wheelclamp then the policy will respond.

If you would like to discuss the cover available on your policy in further detail then we can arrange for a customer service advisor to contact you or you may speak directly with one of them on 01743 282780.

As your claim handler I am able to correspond with you with regards to the actual circumstances of this claim and on this occasion items have been removed without force from an unlocked hatch for which we regret is not covered by an insurance policy. In all honesty we are unaware of any other marine policy which would cover somebody just coming along and taking something from an unprotected area.

It would also bring into question the duty of care condition on any insurance policy which is shown on Page 24 and detailed for your convenience below:-

You must comply with the following conditions to have the full protection of Your Policy. If You do not comply with them Your Insurers may, at their option, cancel the Policy or refuse to handle Your claim or reduce the amount of any claim payment.
7.1. Your duty of care
Your Insurers will only provide the insurance described in Your Policy if:
7.1.1 to the best of Your knowledge and belief, the information that You have given is true and complete. If someone else has given the information for You, that person was acting for You at the time and You are responsible for the information they gave;
7.1.2 anyone claiming under Your Policy has met all the relevant conditions;
7.1.3 You have taken all reasonable steps to maintain and keep Your boat and all its gear and equipment in a proper state of repair and Seaworthiness;
7.1.4 You have taken all reasonable steps to protect Your Insured property from loss or damage;
7.1.5 following the immersion or partial immersion of Your boat’s Machinery, immediate First aid has been administered;
7.1.6 in the event of an incident which may give rise to a claim under Your Policy, You have taken all reasonable and necessary actions to minimise and prevent further loss or damage.

Basically as with any of those stolen items they should be/can be removed and those that you choose to leave can be left on the boat providing there is some security in place all be it with a wire strop with a padlock. As you seem to be fully aware that the hatch does have a lock you have still decided to leave loose items in an unprotected area.

In view of the above the policy is unable to cover the theft of your items from your boat on this occasion as there is no evidence to demonstrate that they have been forcibly removed.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 11:59 am 
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What have we learnt (the expensive way)

it is worthwhile checking the following, if I might be so bold - If you have the same policy that I have with Towergate - I dont have experience of others other than my other kayaks which are insured with the BCU.

1. where you are keeping the boat is in a locked enclosure. Just in a boat park is not good enough. You have to have "forcible entry". Climbing over a fence is not enough to protect you under the insurance. They want to see something broken. The bit of Rockley Park I was in was not - according to them.

2. everything that can "reasonably" be removed is. You decide what that means. For me it means you cant leave anything that isn't fixed to the hull that could possibly be removed.

The alternative to that is to get the insurers to look at a parts diagram of the boat and tell you categorically what you can and cannot leave and what you have to take home. Discussing after the event is a non starter. Imagine...oh yes the mast is easy to carry. Especially in two pieces "you could have taken that home". Who takes their soaking wet seats home?.....I would now if I had any :lol:

The upshot of all this is that I no longer have a boat that works and not the means to replace the parts at the moment. The good news is that I have one seat from my revo so i can sail one seated! not really the idea as the summer was supposed to be spent with Mrs C now she has learnt to swim. :wink: and hopefully my Hakas will be there when I go down to retrieve what is left.

It also means that my reading of the policy (which I am trying to cancel and will not be renewing for obvious reasons) means that I have to keep the boat at home where I can keep an eye on it.

Finally, and this is believe is the BIGGEST DISAPPOINTMENT to me, these parts have specifically been stolen by another Hobie sailor. They are no use to anyone else and need a certain know how to take them off a Ti. Even the seats for example. And i thought we were a nice bunch. :(

Cest L'a vie

Anyone interested in a hardly used Ti with half of it missing? If so get in touch.

CC :x

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 12:31 pm 
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One good point just made by email ....

If you take these bits off the boat. Lets say the seats for example. Who is then covering them insurance wise?

In the car or house.. sporting goods.. Possibly not unless they are noted on the policy....

CC :?:

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 12:41 pm 
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so who here can tell me which bits of my Ti (if I still had them) are insured.....

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I shall have a go a marking them on the photo...
CC :P

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 12:56 pm 
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Too late......mind you I am lying in bed a bit the worse for it so was able to get on to the task right away.

As far as I can interpret the bits that possibly could fall into the subjective "you cant take them with you" category that my insurers say are covered....maybe. Are

1 Hull
2 x Amas
maybe an Aka or two
possibly not the tramps
certainly not the mast and sail.
definitely not Kayaking Bobs spray skirts
totally not the seats
never in a million years the mirage drives

anything that I have missed?

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CC

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 4:21 pm 
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I was thinking the rudder, but they would argue that too. (Was the spectra line cut or unknotted?) :roll: So the hull/dagger only.

Sounds like 75% of the boat is not covered and you are just wasting $$ on these guys.

So "what if" you put a "locking" Hobie kayak cover on the folded trailered TI and someone cut it off and stripped the boat? (You only removed the sail/mast and Hakas). Are you covered then?

When you can, make them choke on their own fine print.


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 4:36 am 
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You are, of course right....I was trying to be too honest. but I doubt I will be able to leave anything with the boat now- might just have to risk the amas or just trail the thing around every time. which is probably the best solution and keep it away from mirage drive pilferers :lol:

Anyway we have the big guns wheeled in for a fight so more excitement to come yet, no doubt. Watch this space.

CC

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 6:40 pm 
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CC, you can at least pull a chain thru the hull and Ama portholes and lock them together, and to a solid point. That's going to require "breaking and entering". Or vandalizing of the hulls. :roll:

Man, I thought you Brits were all civilized and stuff,..?


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 9:47 pm 
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So did I. At least in the Hobie world.

I do chain the hull to the trailer and lock that up as well. Presumably thats why i have still got some of it left.

I am going to scrape togethe for one mirage drive and one seat to get me going again and am in the process of writing to the Head honch at Royal Sun Alliance who are the underwriters for the policy.

My pal at Lloyds register says that the brokers have not done any favours in the way they have handled the case so i am being advised to start a formal complaint process, which i am sure will take ages.

We all live and learn, and hopefully someone will learn something from my experience and check their policies and if necessary seek the appropriate clarification from their insurers.

CC

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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 12:54 am 
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Chopcat, I've no experience of insuring a Hobie. But I used to have a rather expensive Feathercraft folding kayak. I insured it with N W Brown, who seemed reasonably knowledgeable. (They at least knew what a folding kayak is, which is rare.) I never had to make a claim, so I don't know how it would have been handled, but if you're still looking for insurance, you could at least ask them and see if their small print makes more sense.

Mary


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 7:00 am 
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Here in the US (the land of frivolous litigation) the job of the initial insurance contact is to deny (or seriously diminish) the value of your claim, then deflect any counterpoint you may have to their denial. Their job, basically, it to keep their money in their pocket. They know by the percentages that many will accept their denial (or low-ball compensation offer) and go their merry way.

Tenacity, persistance, a cool head and logical thinking (which you have proven very capable of) are what get you paid. Never loose your cool - always respond with respect ... but pound them with logic and reason at every turn. Look for any and every chip in their armor to drive a spike in and take hold. Examine every ambiguity ...

... but don't let the whole experience consume you. Compart-mentalize it and turn your thoughts of it off when not dealing with it as if it is in the past

Life is too short to go around all screwed up in the head over something you have little control. There are no mistakes if a lesson was learned - perhaps a costly lesson, but one none the less.

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