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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:37 pm 
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Tom Kirkman :
Tom as usual of course you are probably right. But it sure is fun playing with this stuff, and you never know if someone comes up with a trouble free easy to use wing sail design that is simple to use and doesn't cost more than a standard sail. Being 2-3 times more efficient over a standard sail. What comes to mind would be the Hobie Kayak sail, someone could design a way more efficient Kayak sail that doesn't have hardly any healing moment trying to tip them over, I see this as a practical application. When I built my wing jib I designed so it can be used either as a jib or as a kayak sail for my tandem island for use without the AMA's (the standard hobie kayak sail is too small for a TI). I'll take a video next time I go out. If I still had my Revo I would have built one for that, but I sold my last Revo last year.

When we first got into Hobie kayaks a long time ago our favorite pastime was sailing our Oasis and Revoutions around the Keys, I can't tell you how many times I fell over and got wet, with a wing sail the likelihood of that happening would be very slim, and the wing is 3 times more efficient, and shouldn't cost anymore (basically the same materials, just a slightly different design working on different principles).

Same goes with my old Sunfish, I can't tell you how many times I capsized my Sunfish (usually at least once or twice per outing), if I had a wingsail it would have been way more fun and way faster with much less likelihood of capsizing.

Even a Bravo or Wave would benefit from a wing sail, much better speed and stability. I'm not talking about crazy contraptions like this ( http://www.solidwingsails.com/), I'm talking about proper wing sails that from a distance look no different from a conventional sail, and shouldn't cost any more to make, and break down exactly the same as conventional sails (either by furling or by halyard). You are just starting to see these on some of the windsurfers rigs.

The same goes with foils, if someone can come up with a simple automatic foil design for cats and tri's, that basically works automatically as a no brainer I can envision foils being supplied on many future cats and tri's.

Even your trifoiler, if you were to update the sails to wing type sails, your performance and capability would improve considerably. Keep in mind your Trifoiler was designed back in the 90's, nobody knew anything about wings sails back then. Wing sails work on different principles, and just didn't exist when Ketterman designed the Trifoiler, just imagine if he were to re-visit that design with what he knows now (WOW).

Unfortunately none of this will ever happen because of the class rules that stymie the entire industry (just my opinion).
Bob


Last edited by fusioneng on Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:39 pm 
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JUST FOR FUN,..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOFSyQ3V0Ig&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:38 pm 
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Bob, there was a lot of development work on wing-sails in the nineties, especially by Lindsay Cunningham, whose tri-hull sing-sailed "Yellow Pages Endeavour" broke the World Sailing Speed record with 46mph in 1993.
http://www.trampofoil.com/speedsailing/record.html

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:49 am 
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NOHUHU wrote:
JUST FOR FUN,..

Love it ! :P

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:39 am 
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Never drank a drop of Red Bull in my life, but I LOVE that company! They get so many awesome things happening, like this, like Jetman etc etc.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:38 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:14 pm 
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Kiwis are ripping it up. Topped 44 knots today = 50 mph!! In moderate 15 knot winds

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I think Oracle has a challenger.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:43 pm 
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There is no doubt, they are getting better each time out.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:00 pm 
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Thanks for posting this NOHUHU. I can't find any TV broadcast down this way so will have to make do with this website and YouTube clips. I'm just sifting through the videos to try and catch up with the action. Not many spectator sports can get the adrenaline pumping like this. Love it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:33 am 
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Supposed to be something on fox in your area.

Our tv schedule doesn't start till sept (sigh) but many of the races are covered LIVE through utube or the smartphone apps. I just missed one thurs am and tuned in at the end.

The hd youtube videos are awsome. Also the races are cool in virtual 3D.

There are events scheduled for Sat and Sunday, and I think the Sunday one has live coverage.

Pity. I'll be racing the TI3 off Waikiki at that hour though. Wish me luck. ;-)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:16 am 
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The boats are being run upwind at 2X the speed of the wind, and downwind around 3X.

The physics are pretty crazy to get used to, but as I grasp it, these boats are ALWAYS sailing upwind. Going downwind on the foils, they are driven by the foresail, rather than a spinnaker and are actually tacking around 30º to the "Apparent" wind, (say 30 knots) which is WAY out front of the boat, rather than behind. If they threw an actual spinnaker out, it would act as an air brake (would you flip or pitchpole?).

When the downwind trimmer (usually the spinnaker guy) said he now looks far ahead for wind gusts, my head really started to :oops:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:08 am 
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NOHUHU wrote:
Supposed to be something on fox in your area.
Pity. I'll be racing the TI3 off Waikiki at that hour though. Wish me luck. ;-)
Good Luck ! Any speed enhancements added to the TI3? Who are you racing, other Islands or ???. Post some video of the race if you are able.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:21 am 
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NOHUHU:
Trying to utilize wing sails changes the thinking behind sails and sailing. I worked a couple hours last weekend trying to figure out how in the heck I'm ever going to use or my spinnaker ever again ( I tried a couple dozen combinations, and riggings). Basically I came to the conclusion that no matter how I configure the spinnaker the best it can ever do is 1=1 to the wind with a spinnaker(which is what my boat typically does down wind without any wings (just regular sails)). Now throwing wing sails into the picture I'm having difficulty figuring out how and when to put my spinnaker out, even with a wing foil on the leading edge of my current spinnaker design(to keep it from collapsing on a reach) it is incapable of going more than 1=1 to the wind, so I think you are correct, launching a huge spinnaker on a boat with wing sails turns the spinnaker into an airbrake and would actually slow you down. This actually sucks because my favorite sail is my spinnaker, there is no other experience in sailing more fun that just launching a huge spinnaker and watch it fill up and you take off like a banshee. With my TI I have the spinnaker mounted so far forward (on the bow sprit) and at an angle so it also creates lift on the bow and lifts the bow out of the water (so I can get the hull to plane). When I eliminate the spinnaker I will have to put my old bow hydrofoils back on under the bow in order to lift the bow out of the water.
I suspect even with a wing mainsail and a wing jib, the uplift force on the bow will not be enough to get the bow out of the water on a TI (without the spinnaker).

These crazy wing sails work on different principles from regular sails and sailing, and require all new thinking. I'm still firmly believing once I'm done hopefully later this summer my top speed will be 22 to 25 mph on my TI without a spinnaker (currently it's around 18+ mph (downwind only) with all 330 sq ft of sail flying). But will require my small bow hydrofoils (the ones I made 3 yrs ago) in order to raise the bow out of the water (the only way I have found to get any speed out of a TI is to get that bow out of the water).
Once achieving the above I will re-introduce the full hydrofoil system I made 2 1/2 yrs ago (just sitting in my garage collecting dust) and who knows, what my TI will be capable of speed wise (fingers crossed), I might need to invest in a helmet ( LOL).
This is all really cool stuff and these guys on the Americas cup boats are showing us how to do it. We all have eyes, and it's pretty darned simple to just make the stuff once you understand how it's supposed to work, and the principles.
Bob


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:23 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
Once achieving the above I will re-introduce the full hydrofoil system I made 2 1/2 yrs ago (just sitting in my garage collecting dust) and who knows, what my TI will be capable of speed wise (fingers crossed), I might need to invest in a helmet ( LOL).
Bob
When you're ready for some serious testing Bob (hopefully soon), I'll head down there with my AI as a spotter/safety boat. Last week I successfully completed a more efficient AI Jib design to replace the Hobie jib sail I was using. Someday ....

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:48 am 
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For several reasons, I haven't been following this thread. But, it looks like some good things going on. I'll be looking forward to the results.

Keith

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