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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:33 pm 
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PassWind wrote:
just thinking off the cuff here, but with water density considerably greater than air, I would think a water turbine would be much more efficient, per unit size, than wind.

... for reference, just look/imagine the prop diameter difference from a 30' powerboat compared to your average 4 seat small aircraft


Perhaps Alan you could have a combination of a water turbine and a mirage driven generator. I don't know how old all you young whipper snappers are, but back in my day when I was about 10yo and riding the 3 mile trip back home from scouts at 9:00pm ( yep, it was a safe world back then ), I'd just flick a lever and a small generator would flip across onto the front tyre and BAM, my very own instant power station. The kids of today would never believe it. :roll: :roll: :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:41 pm 
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I don't have any plans to build anything like that (water powered turbine) as I have no real need for anything like that.
But thinking about it (just a little) my approach would be instead of an underwater propeller which creates a lot of drag, I would design a paddle wheel with about 15 or 20 spokes and about 16 or 18 inches in diameter (you could use plastic spoons on the ends of the rods), The diameter of the wheel would match your particular boat and height from the waterline. I would then get the gear system from an old electric drill with planetary gears the chuck end would be attached to the paddle wheel. The area where the motor normally goes I would replace with a neo magnet motor (like from an RC race car) (or one of those bike wheel generators like Slaughter had as a kid (yes you can still buy them)). When sailing the paddle wheel would spin at slow speed from the water movement. Going thru the planetary gears the motor RPM would probably produce enough useful power to power a full set of nav lights on the boat directly (even at 3mph), or if ran thru a battery, keep the battery charged enough so if you stop the lights don't go out right away. Similar to the way solar yard lights work, actually you could add the solar panels from a couple of those yard lights to the top of the box as well, and help charge even faster during sunlight.
You only need a voltage regulator chip and a USB socket and you could charge Iphones and most radios. If it were me I would make the box large enough so the phone,radio, Go Pro camera, etc can be placed inside the waterproof box and sealed in during charging, I would make it big enough with enough usb connections inside to charge up to 4 small electronic items at a time. I know of no waterproof USB stuff out there, and as everyone already knows electronics and seawater don't mix, I can't even tell you how much electronics I have wrecked in seawater ( ie.. cameras, cell phones, radios, etc). So there would be no plugs or outlets on the outside of the box, just the input shaft. Of course if someone wanted to get fancy they could install one or more of those waterproof type plugs like on the Evolve system, to maybe power a hummingbird or something. But that's going beyond what I had in mind as a charging station for all your electronics that also keeps the electronics dry during charging. As everyone knows with their Gopro's, cell phones, FM radios, etc you have to take them out of the waterproof case to charge using USB, and that's when you get in trouble.
Just a thought, but I have no plans to build anything like this, though it would be very simple to make using off the shelf components, You just have to go to Mcdonalds at least 20 times or so to get the Mcflurry spoons and destroy all evidence of your trip (eat the McFlurry, and throw away the cup (not in the garbage at home ( wives check for that)).
If someone makes one, please post about it, would be fun. Obviously there would be a million things to work out detail wise, but it's all cheap enough you could do it trial and error. (maybe $30 bucks or so if you can find an old worn out electric drill, and have old RC motors laying around, and have neighbors with solar yard lights)

You wouldn't notice any drag from the paddle wheel because the drag is minimal (30 times less than a prop (just a guess)).
All the electronics could be placed in a waterproof dry box with the shaft sticking out one side. and be lashed to the deck when you want to generate electricity or charge batteries, or produce light you just hang it over the side of the TI.
Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:50 pm 
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Hi Bob, amazing thoughts which reminded me of my bike wheel generator:
http://image.ohozaa.com/i/577/4Pdhc.jpg
the great thing is when I park my bike after a ride the light stays on for another 5minutes.

My idea would be to construct such a paddle wheel around this wheel generator (already made for it)
sit it into the drive well via its axis and seal the whole unit off with a cover.

The question is if those wheel generators can be submerged in saltwater as they are somewhat waterproof already and what output can I get from it

what were your thoughts/reasons on the planetary gears you mentioned. Are the gears(resistance) important depending on the speed (knots)
you do?

Have to find out more, I am HOOKED!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:17 pm 
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Here a video of a very very basic setup pics how he did it at the end of the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv8kwbS50Mo

Water tightness and power output of the unit is still questionable if this could work or not...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:19 pm 
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Slaughter wrote:
I don't know how old all you young whipper snappers are, but back in my day when I was about 10yo and riding the 3 mile trip back home from scouts at 9:00pm ( yep, it was a safe world back then ), I'd just flick a lever and a small generator would flip across onto the front tyre and BAM, my very own instant power station. The kids of today would never believe it. :roll: :roll: :roll:
I fear the kids of tomorrow will not even know what pedals are for.

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Electric bikes: coming soon to a christmas tree near you...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:32 pm 
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TheFlyingNorthman:
There you go you already have a dynamo generator all rigged and ready to go.



Here is another one that already has the USB charger electronics setup (http://www.amazon.com/GENERATOR-BICYCLE ... +generator )

Here is one similar to yours ( http://www.amazon.com/I-Light-Dynamo-Br ... +generator )

My only reason for the old drill front housing mounted to the side of the box (with just the drive shaft sticking into the box) is so it doesn't leak water into the box, and the RPM of the output drive shaft is 4 or 8 times the RPM of the input shaft so if your only going 3-4 mph you will still generate electricity. You can test with your existing unit and just pedal the bike at say 1-2 mph (simulating the water wheel) and see how much electricity you get, I suspect it won't be enough at low speed. I would assume the unit is designed to operate at around 10 mph or whatever normal speed would be on a bike, which is much faster than a sailboat or kayak.
No matter which Dynamo unit you use I wouldn't mount it anywhere near any salt water. I like the sealed dry box mounted on the rear deck idea, so that you can put all your electronics into the box for charging, It wouldn't be rocket science to add a bank of solar panels from your neighbors solar yard lights (hooked in series) to the lid of the box, and have a fairly large 12v sealed AGM type battery all inside the sealed box. You could keep the drill chuck from the drill and just put the waterwheel into the drill chuck and tighten it up when you want to use it.
I'm still thinking the waterwheel over the side of the boat on the rear deck will be the most out of the way.

A couple years ago I designed and built a pully setup and bracket that I could use to power my mirage drives with an electric powerdrill (pretty simple). It would be pretty easy to replace the electric drive motor with a generator, and generate electricity while you pedal ( I always pedal 100% of the time anyway even when sailing). But to be honest I would prefer to keep any electronics or gadgets out of the passenger compartment, I like the water wheel idea much more.

If you wanted to go really radical you could also add a wind charger on a 3 ft pole sticking out of the box, this way you get wind, solar, and hydro electric power all out of the same unit. The entire unit would be all self contained and could be taken on shore and provide power to your campsite as well with the solar and wind turbine added. If you added an inverter, you could also power your coffee maker and shaver.
For the wind turbine I would just take a second dynamo (the first unit above) and just mount a 12 inch fan blade and a weather vane tail to it. If you want to feel safe you can even keep the fan guard that was on the box fan. You would likely need to bend the fan blades a little more (higher attack angle) so they can work in the wind)

On the water wheel with a larger generator you may have to go to coffee cups instead of spoons.

Fun stuff to think about, but I honestly have no use for such a unit, when I think camping, I'm thinking 40 ft motorhome with big screen TV's, central air, with electric and sewer hookup.
I love to do excursions and distance, but at the end of the day I'm looking for a nice motel or campground (too old to sleep on the ground anymore).


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:00 am 
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I just returned from a 3 day camping trip, where my iPhone was providing an aerial photo of Lake Mead, and from time to time, when I took it out of airplane mode, getting a GPS fix of our location. This is more than an iPhone battery can do unassisted. So, I had a Goal Zero Nomad 7 solar panel and their Guide 10 4-AA-cell charge controller/battery pack strapped to a haka in a ziplock bag. At end of day, I would use the charged batteries and USB output to recharge the phone. It was not all that sunny, but this system provided the power I needed. I don't think it would have provided much more than that, though. The Goal Zero unit is well made and engineered. It just does what it does with no fuss, and is not very heavy. The ziplock arrangement brought it safely through some very splashy sailing and rain.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:26 am 
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The wind powered generators used on sailboats are very noisy, keep this in mind. I have a friend that lives on his sailboat at a mooring and powers everything off solar, he has a wind turbine but the noise was too much and he never uses it.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:39 am 
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I have a couple of lithium polymer 12v 2Ah batteries plus charger. I made up a charge lead with a connector so I could feed 5V to my sports cams (using a tiny voltage regulator from Dimension Engineering), and another lead providing 12v to myVHF radio. I keep all this is a small tupperware box. I can then run the devices for about 3 days without extrernal power.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:45 am 
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TheFlyingNorthman :
Once you test out your wheel generator to see if it generates enough power at 3-4 mph (sailing speeds), and if it does work, I'm wondering if you made a bracket that mounts the unit just over and just in front of the rudder (so the rudder will still swing up). Then mount two paddle wheels (one on each side of the rudder). These would be 15 or 20 spokes coming from a 3 inch dia hub (not designed like that video with disks), I think the spokes with cupped ends would have less lateral resistance than a big old paddlewheel and be substantially lighter and less bulky (the spokes could be removed for storage). The paddle ends would only go into the water a few inches so when you beach you shouldn't need to remove them, the paddle generator system would stay on the boat all the time.
Check the wattage on the unit you have, if it's only a 3 watt generator, you might look into a larger 6 watt unit (only slightly more expensive), but that's your choice.
Your correct the unit you already have is probably waterproof enough that it shouldn't need to be mounted in a box if mounted way up there, the only thing it would see would be rain and an occasional splash, should be water proof enough for that. The spokes I would make from 1/4 aluminum rod threaded on the ends with lock nuts (so you can orientate the spoons/cups (perfect balance isn't important on such a low speed unit)). This unit itself should never need to be removed from the boat during your trip. The power from the unit I would route out with a waterproof wire with a waterproof plug on the end of the cord that would plug into your power station (Grid).

I still recommend you use a waterproof box as your control center so you can put your radios, cell phones, GoPro, etc inside the sealed box during charging (their most vulnerable time), leave enough room for 3-4 items, and wire in at least 3-4 usb plugs and wires inside the box. If you want to get fancy you can use lithium battery packs inside the unit (lighter), or just settle for a AGM 12 volt motorcycle battery (or something larger if you think you'll need it).
Even with the generator and the control center, I'm thinking if you get one or two of those foldable solar panels that you can lay out on the tramps, you can get additional power from those weather permitting, and also lay them on the ground when on shore near your camp site to keep you power center charged. Adding a few solar cells to the top of the box is also an option (every square inch counts).
Your control center would just bungy onto the rear storage area so it can be removed when you are camping and brought to shore to provide camp power. You will have charge controllers, plugs for USB power, 12 volt output (cigarette lighter plug), and an inverter for 110/220 power inside the unit (where everything stays dry).

If you have an unlimited budget you may want to look into adding an Evolve system to the mix. Your control center should be able to provide enough charging power to keep the evolve batteries charged up enough for occasional use. Basically you take along the charging unit that comes with your evolve system (stored inside your control unit and plugged in via your inverter to provide charging power for the evolve batteries ( I would take two batteries, use one battery, while the other is charging), also with evolve you may be able to charge and power at the same time (extending the battery range) just like the solar panel option that comes with the current evolve system does now but with your generator supplying that supplemental power vs the evolve solar panel (way cheaper). But that's all you choice and depends on your budget (Evolves are very expensive). The Evolve solar panel option is much more expensive than the more common 12 volt solar panel systems out there, I would set it up like I described above, verses the evolve solar options. Alternately you could design your entire system around the evolve 30volt battery systems (eliminating the 12 volt AGM battery), but I have a feeling it would be way more expensive.

Here is my take on sea adventure of long duration. You never know what to expect weather wise and you must be prepared with backup systems
for everything. And if you get caught out in raging seas and high winds (sudden storms) you have to have the means to get out. If your a mile out and an offshore 25mph+ wind kicks up your sail and mirage drives will not save you from being blown out to sea (this has happened to me more than once).
Also if the wind dies completely or becomes very unfavorable (head wind directly at you), or if your mast breaks, or your rudder breaks, etc, you have to have some means to overcome these possibilities.
Since your going on such a long trip I think if I were going on such an adventure I definitely recommend mounting a Honda 2.3 gas motor onto your TI as a safety backup (that's what I have on mine, and have actually had to use it on several dire occasions). The whole unit only weighs 27 lbs and tips up out of the way when you don't need to use it. If your mast or rudder breaks, or a storm blows in just power it up and get back to safe harbor. I have a trailer so the motor is permanently mounted to the boat (I have never removed it). Even if you do remove it, the motor is very light and compact. I've always had an emergency gas backup motor on my TI's for the last 3 1/2 years with way over 5000 sailing miles, just for my own piece of mind. Just stuff to think about when embarking on such a long adventure ( I'm only trying to help). I always carry 2 1/3 gallons on fuel on board which will get me between 150 and 250 miles.
Also you might also want to look into possibly powersailing your adventure boat exploiting the tri-power capabilities (wind, pedal, and supplemental power(hybrid gas/or solar electric)). If you go to this topic on my boat 'ultimate Tandem island' you can read up on some of the stuff that you might be able to use on long adventures (viewtopic.php?f=69&t=33720), look into some of the later pages on the powersailing stuff). I found at least in the standard conditions we have in our area, if I want to travel any distance, I much prefer traveling at 6-9mph vs the standard 3-4 mph that a typical TI will do in low or no wind conditions. Plus when powersailing the actual wind direction is not a factor at all (you can sail almost directly into the wind if needed).
With your water generator idea you could pull the whole thing off with either gas supplemental power, or an evolve solar/electric system.

The main reason I'm responding to this at all is that water wheel generator may be the missing link in the chain needed for a workable solar/electric powersailing drive system to succeed, exploiting the tri-power capabilities of your Adventure boat (I've been working and thinking about that one for almost three years now). Once perfected I plan to enter the 300 mile Watertribe EC challenge with it (in class VI experimental electric), (http://www.watertribe.org).


Just some ideas for you
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:24 am 
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Bob, I'm confused (my normal state). Many people have already completed the WaterTribe EC in basic AIs--a couple 1st in their class. Why do you need to add all those electrical contrivances to enter the EC (and kick your boat up to Class 6)?

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:02 pm 
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Kieth:
Ok I'm the first to admit I'm old (in my 60's) and am a midget when it comes to physical endurance (though I've been trying to work on that out pedaling my TI every weekend 15 to 40 miles a week), plus I'm diabetic and physically wouldn't be able do such a trip in the 3-4 days it would require averaging 4-5mph for the trip. So my plan is to cheat by whatever means possible (within the rules), using my brain power to design a boat that I can use to complete the challenge within my physical abilities regardless of the conditions.
That's all the reasoning behind all my advanced wing sails, (see topic viewtopic.php?f=69&t=33720 ). By cheating and utilizing every means I can think of exploiting the tri power ability of my TI I am hoping to be able to complete the race regardless of the conditions. Basically every ounce of energy I employ will give me maximum output, knowing my own physical limitations.
My current rig with the Hybrid gas motor (because it was all I could afford to continue testing all the other stuff until I get the electronics worked out). Once I get the electronics end worked out my supplemental power will be solar/battery/electric, It's a huge undertaking to be able to provide 40 hrs of nonstop electric power to propel my boat (never been done before). Actually there was a guy last year with a Windrider 17 and a Torqueedo electric system entered in class 6 but he dropped out. I talked to him before the race and we compared notes, I knew before he left that he hadn't worked it out and wouldn't be completing the race, but he gets a A for effort from me.
Currently my TI blows past pretty much anything out there in low wind conditions, and I can sail almost directly upwind faster than windspeed (which was a hard fought battle to overcome). Whenever I go out in winds 3-6mph I'm averaging 6-7mph and peaking in the 8-9mph ranges, and the best part the actual direction the wind is coming from just doesn't matter, I can sail almost directly into the wind (no tacking needed). With my current hybrid setup the motor gets around 100 miles per gallon of gas so I typically go out sailing all day for about a buck in gas. It's of course a human powered setup so I have to pedal 100% of the time to achieve the performance I get, but every pedal stroke is amplified by a huge factor by the sails and supplemental power (every stroke counts).
Right now if they allowed me to enter my boat (can't because it's currently hybrid gas propulsion) I'm pretty certain I could complete the race at an average speed for the entire race over 7mph (about 42 hrs), even if there is hardly any wind or the winds are unfavorable (headwinds), if the winds are more favorable I'm pretty sure I could average 9-10 mph (about 33 hrs) currently.
If things go according to plan by this time next year my TI will be able to average 9-10mph if in low or unfavorable wind conditions, and average 12-14mph with favorable conditions. Finishing the race in around 24 hrs would be within my physical abilities.
I have my wing jib completed and proven out (similar in design to the jibs on the AC72's). I have my wing mainsail designed but it won't be completed till next summer, and I doubt I'll have the electronics for the solar electric drive system worked out until next fall.
I've been working on this crap for 3 yrs now, it's been a huge learning experience for me and lots of fun testing out all my new inventions. Bottom line it's a really fun hobby for me and occupies my mind whether I ever enter the race or not in real life, it's just fun to have goals.
You know me well enough by now to realize that I think pretty far out of the box, (whether that's a good thing or a bad thing "who knows")
Bob


Last edited by fusioneng on Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:28 pm 
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A little off topic but a kind of related to what I just talked about above.
Actually I was out doing more testing in less than desirable conditions all day yesterday. The winds were in excess of 20 mph and the chop was 2-3ft all afternoon. I just made a new higher pitch prop for my Honda with a 7" pitch vs the stock propeller which is 4.5" pitch and was testing it out running everything through those nasty conditions. My wing jib sail worked like a champ and I was able to leave that fully deployed and working it's little butt off propelling the boat. Since it's a wing sail there is almost no heeling force so it can't possibly tip the boat over or even bury the AMA's but it provides huge horsepower in those conditions equal or greater than the stock mainsail can produce in similar conditions even though it's only 1/3 the size. I had the stock mainsail furled in about 3-4 turns (sometimes more) to keep from burying the AMA's and possibly tipping over (can't wait till I finish the new wing mainsail). As everyone knows TI's are very light and when in real heavy chop they tend to slow down or stop completely when a 3 footer rolls over the boat. With the new prop I was able to cut through all that and maintain my speed pretty well. For the day I averaged a little over 7 mph with top speeds a little over ten mph without overstressing anything or sailing to the ragged edge (but boy was it a wet ride, even in the wet suit I was getting cold). I never deployed my big spinnaker at all, though I have used it before in similar conditions, I deem it to be just too dangerous to allow the TI to hurl along a 18-20 mph (risk of damage and breakage is just too great) even with the re-enforced hull.
I checked my fuel when I got home and had used about half a tank of gas (1/6 gallon of fuel (about $50 cents))
Even in 20mph plus headwinds I was able to pedal/sail making very good progress 15-20 points off the wind and maintain my 6-7 mph upwind, I did it yesterday with 3 footers rolling over me several times a minute, I swear at times the boat was underwater more than it was above, but it kept on truckin. I'm becoming a big believer in wing sails, and tri-power. I really want to replace that gas motor with electric as soon as someone figures out how to do it.
I have a GoPro on my xmas list, hopefully I'll be able to post good videos for a change in the future.
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:41 pm 
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Geez, Bob, that's impressive. My only correction is your perception of "old." I think of you as relatively young.

We are camping at Ft Desoto, site 4 in the tenting area, on Feb 26-28. Maybe we will see you this year.

BTW, Bob, which GoPro do you hope Santa will bring this year?

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:48 am 
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Kieth:
I'm always up there for the launch of the EC challenge, this year I'll bring my boat (we live just south of there down in Sarasota most of the time). I'll look for you.

I was thinking about the Gopro 3 black edition, my daughter has a gopro3 silver edition and she is very happy with it, but by the time she bought all the extras like the LCD screen and extras (that come with the black) she spent almost the same. She really likes the wifi feature to her Iphone.
She has a 3 ft order of protection against me with all of her stuff because she knows how many cameras and electronics I have destroyed in salt water. I think she also still holds a grudge from 5 yrs ago when we were out kayak sailing and I accidentally rammed her and tipped her over (actually I've successfully rammed or tipped over everyone in the family now). So they all have trust issues with me and water LOL ( a standing family joke), with 5 brothers and sisters, 6 kids and 6 grand kids that's a lot of dunkings.
Bob


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