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 Post subject: Re: Capsized TI
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:33 am
Posts: 51
Location: Ballina NSW
Cheers Tony Scott, we are back where it all began. Home for the new year another week and we head south again. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Capsized TI
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:57 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 1886
Location: South Florida
romenfree wrote:
It was no fault of the TI it was my poor judgment....

Probably all capsizes could be described as due to "operator error," still there are contributing factors, like bad loading and tramps. When I purchased my current used AI, I was given a set of tramps. Never used them. Sold them fairly quickly to a gentleman who had a family and said they were great. We are still in contact occasionally and no complaints. But, I don't use tramps. And, I don't fish for sharks. Now, hakas...that's a different story.

Keith

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I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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 Post subject: Re: Capsized TI
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:44 pm
Posts: 26
This is going to be embarrassing!

New years eve saw me launch at around mid day for a 1 hour sail to test my new skipper seat. First impressions were favourable, high and dry and very comfortable. Life is good.
Just after launching and before unfurling the sail I managed to contact a pontoon with the port ama, all seemed ok so I carried on.
I soon had the sail out and was looking forward to clearing the marina and getting the full effect of the 10/15 kts of wind.
As I entered the main channel I had the wind to my right and the TI picked up speed.
Next thing I know I'm underwater. It happened that quick.
On surfacing I realised the port ama brace bolt had sheared and the ama had swung back. The TI was upside down in the middle of the channel. I had the port ama and the hull in front of me. The stbd ama was still locked out. I surveyed the scene, my seat had bust the hull fittings and had drifted free, my fluro sun hat was also drifted off, the paddle was caught up in mainsheet/ reefing line. First thing I did was to reach for my pfd and slip that on. Now I realise my $450 glasses had been lost. Bugger.
I got my knees onto the port ama and reached over the hull to try to get a handhold, I found the mainsheet, took up the slack and leant back putting pressure on the TI to recover. I did not know if this would work but it was something to try while I thought about a backup plan. Slowly it started to rotate and when the sail was lying on the water I eased off a bit and the TI righted itself. As it landed back upright I was aware it may well just catch the wind and shoot off without me. I quickly grabbed onto the hull, released the mainsheet and started reefing, mainsheet was caught up but the sail was eventually reefed. I had not boarded at this stage and as I was drifting towards the rocks at the edge of the channel I thought I'd wait the short while so I could hold it off from the rocks while I sorted things out ready for the peddle back to the ramp some 150 metres away.
At that point the coastguard arrived in their RIB 'just passing'. They told me they'd picked up my seat and hat and asked if I'd like a tow. I accepted their kind offer. I could have made it back no problem but was grateful none the less.
It scared me a bit.

So what did I personally learn?

1. you can self recover alone after a collapsed ama
2. lash everything down and or use leashes.
3. do not panic, stop and think, recovery is not a race
4. use leash/strap on glasses
5. I will be changing my ama brace shear bolts annually but more importantly if there is any doubt on their serviceability (ie minor bumps)
6. I will re-assess my steering mod and barber hauler as I consider myself lucky not to have got caught up in their rigging

Another loss was the brace arm itself - the retaining wire gave way. Many thanks to Sunstate Hobie for having a good range of spare parts!

Any comments, questions or observations welcome as this forum is for sharing info (even embarrassing cock-ups like this!).


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 Post subject: Re: Capsized TI
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 2007
Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Chekika wrote:
romenfree wrote:
It was no fault of the TI it was my poor judgment....

Probably all capsizes could be described as due to "operator error," still there are contributing factors, like bad loading and tramps. When I purchased my current used AI, I was given a set of tramps. Never used them. Keith


I agree with Romanfree and Keith and that most capsizes are due to "operator error".
The other cause is gear failure such as a broken aka brace bar pin or a broken ama bungee.
Tramps could be a contributor though like bad loading or getting hit broadside by a large wave I'd class those as "operator error" as well.
I've been using tramps on both AI and TI for years and have experienced 30+ knots many times and have never had a capsize.
Knowing that AI/TI's are extremely difficult, but not impossible, to tip...should make for more careful operators.


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 Post subject: Re: Capsized TI
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:35 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:16 pm
Posts: 13
stringy wrote:
Chekika wrote:
romenfree wrote:
It was no fault of the TI it was my poor judgment....

Probably all capsizes could be described as due to "operator error," still there are contributing factors, like bad loading and tramps. When I purchased my current used AI, I was given a set of tramps. Never used them. Keith


I agree with Romanfree and Keith and that most capsizes are due to "operator error".
The other cause is gear failure such as a broken aka brace bar pin or a broken ama bungee.
Tramps could be a contributor though like bad loading or getting hit broadside by a large wave I'd class those as "operator error" as well.
I've been using tramps on both AI and TI for years and have experienced 30+ knots many times and have never had a capsize.
Knowing that AI/TI's are extremely difficult, but not impossible, to tip...should make for more careful operators.

4 people on a downwind tramp and a gust wouldnt help thats for sure.

have a look at this guy sailing the hell out of this t.i
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iML3um_biaU


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 Post subject: Re: Capsized TI
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:04 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:33 am
Posts: 51
Location: Ballina NSW
That is a very cool video, I do love my TI :D


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 Post subject: Re: Capsized TI
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:56 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 1886
Location: South Florida
Eduardo knows how to edit a video--that is for sure! (No tramps on that trip.)

If you want to see some serious, professional capsizes, check this video out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-FlN97Y3ok

Keith

_________________
I sail: Biscayne Bay, Everglades to Cape Romano, Ft Desoto, Cedar Key

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein


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 Post subject: Re: Capsized TI
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:26 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:30 pm
Posts: 32
Good to hear nobody was hurt in these incidents and well done for posting for others to learn.

I was sailing my AI in fairly moderate conditions last week when I broke the rudder pin. Luckily with an onshore breeze I was able to take the easy option to drift back to shore and replace the pin back on terra firma. It was just as well as the spare pins from both hatch covers were missing and I had to go hunting through my safety gear to find a spare one.

Given the pin was 4 years old it now makes sense to me to proactively replace it along with the aka shear bolts every summer. Its a small cost to help minimise any dramas out on the water.


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 Post subject: Re: Capsized TI
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:44 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:09 pm
Posts: 92
Location: Vancouver Island, British Columbia
Johhno-I'm glad to hear everything worked out OK and you were alright. One more thing to put on the learned list--always put on your pfd before you leave the beach.
T

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Fish worship--is it wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Capsized TI
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:06 pm 
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tsquared wrote:
Johhno-I'm glad to hear everything worked out OK and you were alright. One more thing to put on the learned list--always put on your pfd before you leave the beach.
T


absolutely right T. I must admit to looking around sheepishly as I grabbed for it and put it on.... it was a bad example to set!


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 Post subject: Re: Capsized TI
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:47 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 2712
Location: Kailua 96734
tsquared wrote:
Johhno-I'm glad to hear everything worked out OK and you were alright. One more thing to put on the learned list--always put on your pfd before you leave the beach.
T
,.. and lash everything, and test everything, and adjust everything before you hit the water. No matter how much your mates are itching to rush off. :roll:

Some stuff just can't or shouldn't be done on the water. Many times it can put you at risk, and it never saves you time, anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Capsized TI
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:18 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:47 pm
Posts: 1
:) Hi romenfree OK so you can tip these babies I suppose I have come close before, Regards the float idea at the top of the mast I have seen that option on Cats which can have the same problem , Years ago on my Cat, to avoid the total upside down scenario I took the top cap off my mast and filled the mast tube with expander foam , I imagine you could do the same with the Island Mast utilizing the spray cans of expander foam readily available nowadays, be careful ,I would not try to fill the entire mast ,and once you have sprayed enough in ? get the cap back on promptly to direct the flow downwards , it can get messy if too much pressure builds from the expansion of an over fill ,but also realize filling from the top once the first injection sets you will not be able to fill further down except from the other end , I doubt if this will cause any extra weight problem .What this did was it gave me a mast that floated and importantly did not fill with water when submerged. Good luck Lancer .PS I am about to enter a new post regards my Mast breakage :(
romenfree wrote:
:shock: First time I ever even came close was nothing like what happened to me, my mate, his wife and 5 year old daughter when I took them for a sail today.
I had to reassure my mates wife that these did not tip like the cat we had just seen tip before we ventured out.
I was about to tack for the return leg back to shore when I warned of the sail's tendency to flap when into the wind then half way around without warning we were hit by a large gust and over it went, I watched as the down wind ama disappeared under the water throwing all of us off and into the water. It was not front to back it was a side ways capsize, it was surreal!
First thing was a head count and all of us were floating, I instructed my mate to pull the inflation cord on the PDF his wife was wearing and I did the same with mine. At this point a couple of guys on a wave runner came to see if we needed help and they quickly took all three of my passengers ashore.
I had about 5 minutes to contemplate how to get the TI upright and I soon realised it was the mast digging into the sand on the bottom that was stopping both me and my TI being sucked out to sea with the outgoing tide.
I managed to unclip the tramps and swing the amas in and free the furling and sail ropes from their cleats.
Upon their return we managed to right the TI twice but both times it continued to travel right over again and seemed to like being upside down this was due to the sail being still in place so with two of the guys counter balancing we managed to get the sail off the bottom long enough for me to unclip it and pull it free, really lucky they float!
The sail surfaced and was quickly picked up by a second wave runner that had now joined the operation. This made it easy to wright the craft and we then got a tow back to shore to access any damage.
Nothing broken except my ego. reassembled it and then sailed back up the channel to the boat ramp.
Three things I have learned, TI's can be capsized!, inflatable PDF's are terrible when you are trying to manoeuvre around stuff in the water, last but probably most important I will have to install a float to the top of my sail so it will not end up completely upside down if I am to ever go over again.


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 Post subject: Re: Capsized TI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:37 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1320
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
I wonder if an inflatable met topper could be made that works like jiffy pop popcorn, really tiny when not inflate and crunched into a ball. You then lead a plastic tube down the mast under the sail. Then have a pfd co2 inflator on the bottom. If you go over you just squeeze the trigger and the bob topper inflates. You could probably fit the whole works in a spray paint can lid covered with Saran wrap. You can use one of those silver happy birthday balloons. I would get the one that says 'congrats' ( lol). Hopefully you can get balloons with no writing.
Just an idea don't shoot the messenger
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Capsized TI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:33 pm
Posts: 175
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Kieth, to answer your question, YES the TI can capsize without tramps.
However, the others are correct, usually sailing error.
Here is my capsize experience.

I tried a capsize to see if I could recover.

Well that wasn't the reason, I was trying to catch a mate in his TI. I had too much sail out for the gust. I was to his lee and couldn't turn away. The TI turned to windward and I thought it would depower and I could release the main. All a bit too late though and clipped the back of his TI with my starboard ama.

As per the design, the pin sheered, the ama folded in and over we went all in I'm sure less than a second. All would have been well but I had unceremoniously dunked my wife.

Interesting situation, life jacket under my chin (must add a crutch strap), waterproof pants full of water and breathable sailing jacket not doing much breathing. The Port amas was up in the air as the TI had tipped on the side but not right over. I think the sail stopped it going all the way as we were in a dredged channel that was probably about 2m deep. But all was well as my iphone was running navionics and recording our no movement. Should have taken a photo but a bit busy trying to recover before we drifted to the shallows.

So the solution. I always carry a couple of spare ropes in the small mesh compartments so I tied both ropes to the now vertical port aka, just above the arm that holds it out. Threw the ropes over the hull, swam around and wife and I put our feet on the ama in the water and leaned back on the ropes. It took some effort but over it came. Once it starts it comes over quickly. The mast was out of the step before trying this as I couldn't furl it completely and thought it would be easier without it. A challenge putting it back when it wasn't rolled up tight and was wet but it went in without me falling in.

A couple of lessons.
Have a device to undo the spare sheer bolt and replace (thank goodness Hobie attached the spare).
Ensure everything has a chicken strap, including the Hobie drink bottles (took a while to find the one which got away).
Attach a half inch rope to each aka with a loop or two in the right place for next time.
Don't get too close to objects to the windward - if overpowered in gusts you can't turn to lee.
Stay fit as rolling into the TI is hard work.
Purchase a rope ladder to assist getting into the TI with wet clothes.

Will the TI roll completely? Maybe not as the sail will stop it, unless you pitch pole. (others have now disproven that theory)
I'm confident of getting it back up on my own if on its side but would find it hard work if completely over.
No doubt the mast or step would be damaged in a pitch pole.
In this instance, no damage to either boat so that designed sheer works well and I wouldn't replace it with anything stronger. Just a little damage to pride but ended up sailing back and conducting a debriefing (couple of hours at a local pub that makes a very nice milk stout).

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Cheers, Brian in South Australia
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